Kurt Wise: Dawkins' Honest Creationist

Is that your moral opinion based on the subjective whims within the circle of friends which you hang with? You said God cannot be the ultimate source which means that John Harshman is the ultimate source who declares it so. If i would ever meet you, i would take you and your family to a steak dinner if you would oblige. But we are so different at the base foundational level of thinking though, that there is nothing that will alter our perception of the rocks or the science of creationism/evolutionism.

Thankyou for allowing me honesty here. Better get to work.

No. Google Euthyphro.

I suspect that you would agree with the way atheists think about morality.

How did you determine that God’s commandments are moral? Did you use your own sense of morality to determine this? Chances are, you probably did use your own sense of morality to judge the morality of christian theology. Atheists use this same sense of morality.

I suspect that you also see a difference between obedience and morality. Obediently following a set of rules is not morality. “I was just following orders” is not a justification for immoral acts.

Upon having a conversation w another atheist, i shared w you that i brought up the hot topic of morality over racism and how in an atheistic worldview, one cannot truly kill the evil of racism, placing it in a coffin, nail the door, bury it forever.
The reason is because morality must be defined by the majority consent and not upon absolute truth. This means that racism can be permitted in the future with majority rule…there is no collateral to back the claim that it is truly wrong thinking and immoral.

And i read an article today on CNN webpage about a woman named Bobbit i think putting together a lie about repaying a homeless guy for a good gesture etc, establishing a fraudulent go fund me account just to take all but 25k of the $400k buying a BMW, gambling, vacations etc. So how is this not immoral if we are products of survival of the fitest evolution? All this is, is a pretty smart plot towards the end of surviving a crazy world if we are just products of naturalistic evolution.
So if one says someone is immoral, but doesnt have a basis, this model contains nothing in its fabric to inhibit drift into what i consider real evil.

So where does this leave me on the issue of morality? Does it make sense to leave it as “Don’t be a racist because i feel God says if one is a racist, they are going to time out?” Or “Dont get drunk because i feel that this is a no-no.” In light of the demonstration that subjective morality makes no sense because it has no basis, these statements alone are not enough. If morality must have a firm foundation upon which morality must be defined, then the foundation itself must be the most right, and the most treasured. If morality cant really be founded subjectively, the objective truth that bases it must be of the most Supreme Value and should be the means and the motive of moral living. That is exactly what Christianity is in every respect. The greatest commandment within the Old and New Covenant is to Love God with heart, mind and strength. The second is to love neighbor. To love God, one does so by loving neighbor and love delights in truth and delights to obey commands and precepts from God about the rights and wrongs about interactions with neighbor!

So then what makes me think the God of Christianity is the true basis of morality? For one, the essence of morality itself as described shows how morality cant really be moral if it is subjective, and if it is not subjective, then the objective base must be the highest aim. Christianity declares that right behavior alone is immoral unless it is honoring and subjecting itself to a good God.
Secondly the Treasure that defines morality declares proof of His existence by the things He created, and none of us are without excuse for not observing Him. The universe having a beginning only makes sense that Something outside of the natural that is eternal started it. This is exactly what Scripture points out in principle which is agreeable to physics in principle.
Thirdly, Jesus was born, was a great teacher, claimed to be One with God, God in the flesh, and predicted that He would die and be raised. At least 500 saw Him alive post crucifixion. People will die for a cause they have been brainwashed to believe. Never has there been such a great number of people simultaneously willing to die for what they believe to be untrue historically.
Last but not least: what do we do with the Apostle Paul? He killed Christians, then became the most ardent follower of Christ! And he was the perfect candidate, as an expert of the OT to show how Jesus was legitimately a fulfillment of prophecy from revelation in the Old Covenant about Christ fulfilling prophecy for thevushering in of the new covenant!

These facts ground the reality of God and the reality of His Word that all bases a true morality, where the most supreme rightness of all being making Him our ultimate treasure which becomes proven true in right thinking and behavior towards neighbor.

So you see- we may appreciate certain right behaviors as we are both made in Gods image. But we are so different that there is absolutely no hope of coming to any agreement about the history embedded in the language of the rocks. I have completely lost hope in this.

Not true. PS is all about of the finding of cutting edge science. @swamidass please educate @Greg

And even though the vast majority of the world’s societies are theistic, one still cannot truly kill the evil of racism, placing it in a coffin, nail the door, bury it forever.

Think about that. Theism and “theistic worldviews” have been the norm for a very long time and yet the evil of racism persists.

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@swamidass Are you prepared to hand over the reins??

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100% of those societies are human societies. Racism is a human failing that can find its way into any institution we create unless we are diligent in removing it.

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Isnt that true. I like how you (i believe it was you) insist that those who claim to be new creations in Christ as they have been forgiven where the old is gone and the new has begun should call themselves “followers of Christ” instead of “Christians” The term “Christian” was first given to followers of Christ in Antioch by the mainstream and was a term meaning “little christs” If i see myself as a “little christ” then with the potential gaze upon myself i have to wish myself a big “good luck” trying for humility let alone lacking predjudice. On the other hand, if my gaze is upon Another who not only created everyone in His image but who loves the world, then there is little room for the festering of selfish inclination!

So you are right, religion is a really great place for evils of racism to flourish. The gospel has all of the ingredients that abhor the idea of racism and when racism rears its evil head in the follower of Christ’s heart, the gospel that is about Gods love for all people that saves all people from sin we all have, should extinguish this from mind and heart quickly in the man walking in relationship with our Great God!