Kurt Wise: Dawkins' Honest Creationist

You have managed a common creationist fallacy there, equating common descent with purely naturalistic evolution. It’s conceivable that some, maybe even all, of the changes in lineages occurred through divine intervention. But even if that’s true, all the data point toward common ancestry. You really can’t avoid it.

That seems a malicious thing to do. Why would you think he’d do that?

In Scripture He says that He does it. He is not being malicious, but loving and caring, like the teacher who gives their students tests on Fridays. Scripture points to the value of loving and revering God and the value of loving and revering God is by adherance to what God says and promises. There are examples of God lovingly providing tests to help us determine if we trust Him at His Word, or trust another.

And most creationists adhere to a form of common decent were species were formed via selection of traits inbuilt into “kinds” Universal common decent however is quite polar against Biblical creationism. Naturalistic, materialistic universal common decent is irrational and i just dont see any science that is agreeable to support it.

Where?

That makes no sense. God has no reason to give you a test. The purpose of a test is to find out what you know. A teacher needs to evaluate your understanding, but God already knows. Now what you are saying is that God is testing us by putting out false information; that’s not what a teacher would do. That’s not a test; that’s deception.

But those creationists are wrong on the evidence. And who’s to say you are understanding the bible correctly?

Intellectual honesty involves familiarizing yourself with evidence and engaging that evidence. As @John_Harshman has explained, the evidence clearly points to the conclusion in this case.

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I don’t believe this is the case. Luke 10 and Matthew 22 record the words of Jesus as He instructs his followers to love God with heart, soul and mind. To me, loving God with my mind involves using the mind He gave me to investigate what He has called into being.

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A worldy mind wants to question the historicity of the parting of the red sea, Noahs ark, Gideons 300 man army defeating over 10000 midianties, men protected from a blazing furnace, people being raised fr the dead, healed of leprocy, fed in masse from a couple of fish and loaves, God creating the universe in 6 days 6000 yrs ago, AND the legitimacy of a gospel of forgivness of sins by a Savior dying on a cross.

But a renewed mind engaging faith as displayed in Heb 11:

11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible…And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household.

Two of these stand out: the Ark and the 6-day creation. In contrast to the others, we would expect these to leave copious evidence behind, visible in the current world. They did not, and therefore we must conclude that either they didn’t happen or that God has deceitfully concealed them from us. Which do you choose?

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This statement absolutely blows me away with terror on your behalf over the complete and utter irreverence towards God. The Scriptures are very calculated and clear when it comes to any sniffle of suggestion that man’s accessment of things offers to God an ultimatum, telling Him, You either admit that you are a liar or admit that you are a deceiver. Think of what you are doing: you are contending with God the one responsible for speaking the universe into existence. Even if the earth never had a worldwide flood as told in Scripture, by your even suggesting that you are the better beacon and bearer of all truth where God is potentially a foolhearty liar/deceiver who’s incapable of doing this, telling the truth about it, and a deceiver if He did and blinded the evidence from the eyes of man is blasphemy of the highest order. You may not have interest, but i will encourage you anyway to view Gods reaction to Job and the 3 friends who all were processing their accessment of things through human lenses and thinking. Of course the lack of reverence of the 3 friends was tantamount and was deserving of God righteous anger against them as displayed 3/4s thru the book.

And about that worldwide flood as a demonstration of God’s wrath upon sinfulness,of man which i believe is of a type of magnitude of destructive power in the same range of His creative power of speaking the universe into existence could have altered the entire planets natural qualities and laws therein. Science may be bewildered in some areas due to the divine wrath imposed upon the earth…

But science is not completely muted on the evidence.

I guess that you did not see any of the resources by Wise on flood geology, coal formations and how these are fitting to a worldwide flood. The fact that marine animals are intertwined in every fossil layer and even found on the highest moutains. And the evidence that Gould discovered that better fits the creation model, against the evolution model.

I agree that we should never fudge science to fit a worldview. Some science requires a hefty amount of humility and a grip on preconceived notions and feelings to keep it from being tainted from an endeavor for its attempt to discover the truth of the history of the past. But in the science that studies fossils and rock formations, Wise seems to offer some real nuggets from a proper scientific protocol of the observations of this hard evidence that is quite fitting of the flood model. You ask me, “Greg, is it difficult to get past any unjustly planted infantile, childish sentiments infused into your mind on Noah due to the noahs ark pinwheel, and wallpaper Mom had displayed over all her boys’ cribs growing up?” My answer is YES! YES YES YES. Yes it is difficult. Then after grappling w Jesus resurrection and affirming that it must be true and all of the archeology that uses the OT as a roadmap and the transformative power in these Scriptures in my own life that i could write a book on, i believe that any Christian would be a fool to just write off the flood and history of the ark as a fairy tale.
In closing, i should reiterate that if i read the Scriptures correctly, the degree of God’s power in creating the cosmos is sort of the degree that will be administered in the form of wrath upon the sinfulness against Him in the end times and in that judgement upon the earth in the flood. Dont charge me w a hate crime. I hate nobody. I am just relaying what the Book seens to be saying in principle which i believe is true.

No need to worry. There is no such person. If you’re going to post here, you will have to stop being shocked that atheists don’t believe in God.

Aren’t those the same thing?

Why was this deserving? Your God sounds quite petty and vindictive, rather like a mob boss. Now, me, if someone disrespects me my first impulse is not to kill them or threaten them with eternal torment. Am I nicer than God?

Yeah, that’s all nonsense. Coal formations do not fit a worldwide flood. In fact they’re completely incompatible, as they are found all through the supposed flood strata. That would require a prior forest to grow, be buried, a new forest to grow on top of that, be buried, and so on through many repetitions, all during a single flood. Marine animals are found in every fossiliferous marine sediment, but they’re different marine animals depending on the age of the deposit. There are no whales in the Cambrian, no trilobites in the Cretaceous, etc. Why? And fossils are found on top of mountains because the mountains were formed after the sediments were deposited. Do you know nothing about uplift? Finally, Gould discovered no such evidence; Wise is either lying (perhaps to himself) or confused.

And I believe any Christian would be a fool to believe the fairy tale. Which of us is right should be based on evidence. The evidence is against the story. Wise is providing you with mental comfort food, but it’s junk food.

So you are more virtuous than God, since he apparently hates anyone who fails to worship him adequately. The person you describe is a monstrous dictator who uses power irresponsibly. Fortunately, that person doesn’t exist. I wonder how many Christians would agree with me on that.

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This is a threat. Stop the nonsense.

@Michael_Callen Please put a stop to this hate speech. @greg is harshing atheists because of their non-beliefs.

You’re leaving out the other option: your literal interpretation of Genesis is flawed, not that God is a liar.

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The “you” in Greg’s sentence was God, not John. Read it again.

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@Patrick At least half of the people on the earth believe in some sort of judgment. This is not news to any of us. It is not “hate speech” to point out that one is “irreverent toward God” … nor is judging atheists due to their non-belief. There’s plenty of judging that comes and goes both directions. We all have the right to believe or disbelieve.

As a moderator, I’m not going to put a limit on the conversation. It saddens me that so many people here believe that when they make inflammatory remarks, there will be a positive outcome. It happens all the time, again, in each direction. But it doesn’t help.

@John_Harshman has responded thoughtfully and honestly. That’s what should be done IMHO. I don’t agree with all that he says, but the conversation is doing the moderating and that’s the best way for things to go. The umpires should stay out of the game as much as possible.

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Really, so you are okay with “kill the infidels” as long as it is done as sincerely held religious beliefs?

And so have I. I am not going to put up with harassment from zealot Christians who believe that dinosaurs took a one year cruise on a boat. The harshment of atheist from @greg must cease.

Did anyone say “kill the infedels”? Of course we would insist that be stopped.

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That’s silly.

Harshness? Look, I agree that it is not productive to be harsh. But if we were to restrict “harshness” a full 50% of posts would be deleted. Respond thoughtfully. Greg is a real challenge because he does not listen to anything that anyone else says. He does not learn… So, maybe someday he will be disallowed from posting because his conversations are not productive. But, until such time, you can either ignore or respond.

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In many of Greg speeches I heard the dog whistles of harassment, intolerance and injustice against LGBTQ, Abortion, Immigration, race, non-Christian beliefs.

Wise is a Harvard trained paleonotologist who regularly critiques bad science out from his own creationist camp. Have you ever bothered to see the short video blurb i sent or read any of his research with quite convincing pro creation, anti evolutionary arguments? Do you find it discouraging to an evolutionary worldview that there are 21 species of a certian anthropod in the lowest level of the fossil record contrast to only 4 living today? And all 10 or so other bits of scientific evidence that seem to blow up the evolutionary perceptives held so dearly by mainstream?