Lenski: Three Part Series on Behe's Rule

I think you have misunderstood the issue.

Earlier:

That’s what is being questioned.

Showing evidence that people claim mutations are random is not responsive. For the assertion was not about mutations. Rather, it was about mutations that have brought new functions.

I think most biologists would say that “mutations that have brought new functions” is a reference to mutations that have been filtered through natural selection. And those are not random with respect to fitness, because of that filtering.

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How would they support this claim?

It would seem to be implied by the “brought new function”.

Mutations that are filtered out by negative selection don’t actually bring any new function – because they are filtered out.

Then the reasoning is circular.

What you need to show is the mechanism can deliver the functions we are observing to challenge Behe’s argument. Irreducibly complexity dilutes the filter you are describing.

A primates genome is about 3 billion base pairs. These mutations can happen in many different places.

Behe himself agrees that they can arise rarely by random mutation. So there you have it.

Also IC is not a valid argument, and cannot be invoked in his defense. Note, Behe avoided responding to Reference 2, to Boudry’s paper. This is likely because he knows it invalidates IC, and he has no answer for it.

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So you believe that Behe believes that a bacterial flagellum can be built by random mutation?

My suspicion is that you’re confused because when you originally made your claim you didn’t understand the meaning of what you said and actually meant something else. @nwrickert has explained, below, what you said. But I’m not sure that’s what you meant to say. Then again, it’s usually hard to tell what you meant to say.

I respectfully disagree with this assertion.

Science has already done so over the last 70 years. The process is called evolution. Behe’s is the bog-standard ID-Creationist argument from ignorance. He tried to support his claim by cherry-picking his data while ignoring the large amount which refutes him. Not very scientific or intellectually honest I’m afraid.

Science knows how IC structures can be produce through indirect but still completely natural means. The IC argument for ID is just about extinct now because of it.

How does science know this?

Dr. Swamidass has only been posting a link to the explanation almost every day for the last three months.

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Irreducible complexity doesn’t actually have anything to do with it.

We are talking about the distinction between:

  • Mutations

and

  • Mutations which provide new function.

These are obviously not the same. That the first of those is usually described as random with respect to fitness has no implications as to whether the second can be so described.

Yes, I understand that you question whether evolution can actually work. But the discuss was about what people have claimed, not about what works. So your questioning is not relevant.

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Fair enough.

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Are we all dentists here? Because that was like pulling teeth.

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… Says the man who hides a giant pair of pliers behind his back…
(@John_Harshman, just put it down and we can all be friends!)

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He did it in his well-known E. coli study:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2012/09/19/the-birth-of-the-new-the-rewiring-of-the-old/#.XGmI67h7lPY

I don’t believe he does. But he believes a malaria parasite can develop resistance to chloroquine thru random mutations. That is clearly a beneficial mutation, for the parasite. For us, not so much. But that is besides the point. The point is that you do not seem to understand Behe’s position on the matter. I don’t think that is entirely your fault, however.

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Do you think Dr Lenski demonstrated that the Darwinian mechanism was responsible for the major evolutionary transitions such as Tiktaalik?

He agreed with Behe’s that the adaptive mechanism can degrade genes. Why would a degrading mechanism be effective over long periods of time as an innovative tool?

You know the answer to this, since you’ve obviously read Lenski’s blog post, so why feign ignorance?

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Lenski explained that we needed more than the Darwinian mechanism. So why would he argued this?

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