Meaning and Purpose Among the Nones

That’s odd, as I would never describe anything you’ve written here as suggesting the slightest speck of joy.

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The are other possibilities, such as pretending that one is following an objective morality provided by God and Jesus Christ, when one is really just picking and choosing subjectively.

Here’s an example: Ashwin and @Greg and @DaleCutler, how many times have you hosted foreign strangers in your home?

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Your joy detector is deficient. :slightly_smiling_face: The back-and-forth of these conversations is not the most revelatory environment, either.

Is there a passing grade?

Clearly the Bible is telling us that zero is a clear moral failure, no?

There’s a lot more in the Bible about showing hospitality to foreign strangers than there is about abortion and homosexuality combined, correct?

Clearly the Bible is telling us not to be pharisaical, either. I could give you a list of instances when I personally or my wife and I have helped strangers, but would it accomplish anything except to look like I was parading my presumed righteousness?

The first time I read through it, Ezekiel 16:49 was almost startling. (The next verse is not just incidental, however.) Or maybe you have missed my references to Rich Stearns’ book, The Hole in Our Gospel, in other conversations.

Isaiah 58 is massive. The whole chapter. See The Laws of Love.

Straw man.

I’m not asking for a list. I’m asking why you emphasize abortion over far more clear and emphatic moral teachings, if you truly believe them to be objective.

And isn’t the Bible not referring to mere strangers, but immigrants and refugees?

Verse 7:
Is it not to share your bread with the hungry
and bring the homeless poor into your house;

I don’t go that far. Do you? That demands a whole lot more than “helping strangers,” wouldn’t you say?

I draw the line at volunteering for Faith Family Hospitality, when we bring four homeless families into our church. But then I’m not bragging about my morality being objective. :grin:

The point of an objective morality is that it will not change irrespective of how well people follow it.
I believe in a day of Reckoning where all of us will have to answer for our actions. My confidence with respect to such a day is not based on my actions. It’s based on Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. I have no doubt that I will be found lacking in several aspects (known and unknown) on the day of judgement.
That’s why all of us need the grace that Jesus brings us through his sacrifice on the cross.

@Mercer, if I remember correctly, you identify as a Christian. Do you consider yourself as morally perfect?

Actually, I have.

That’s a lame dodge. My point is that you are making excuses for selectively rejecting the objective morality you claim to follow.

If it isn’t based on your actions, why are you arguing for objective morality, and what is the purpose of this?

Matthew 25:
35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Good on ya.

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That’s a pretty stupid question, given my post above it, don’t you think? Again, I’m not the one claiming to follow an objective morality. You’ve just thrown it out the window, in addition to not bothering to read what I wrote.

I was part of a program of adopting a foreign student who attended UC to support and encourage them in a new country
A mission to an orphanage in
Mexico. What is your point?

Your home.

Where do you see me do that?
It’s not a lame dodge. It’s a fact.
What do you understand by the term objective morality?

It’s based on God’s existence. A standard for objective morality exists because of God’s standards. The passage you quote is an example of that.
Irrespective of whether people follow it or not, the requirement of the king stands.

Why do you think Jesus died on the cross?


That you don’t pick and choose. It’s given to you. You don’t have the option of deriving a subjective morality from principles.

Do you follow it or not?

I agree.

Yes. As a part of my church, we do feed the poor, take care of orphans etc.

You are missing the entire point here. Let me spell it out.

There is no one in the world who meets God’s moral standards perfectly. Admitting that an objective moral standard exists is not the same as saying one is perfectly adhering to it.

You have not answered any of my questions. Let me ask them again-

  1. As a Christian do you consider yourself morally perfect?
  2. Do you believe in the day of Judgement?
  3. Why do you think Jesus died on the cross?

As a Christian, I am sure you have definite answers to the above question.

So do I. However, we both fall far short of your allegedly objective morality:

True, but irrelevant.

It’s not about adhering to it. It’s about rejecting it as inconvenient and pretending that your imperfection justifies your subjective rejection.

False. I noted that your first lame question was already answered, and I very clearly answered it againabove, so that dog won’t hunt.

Your other questions are just tribal deflections of the question of whether you truly believe in objective morality. None of us really do; some of us are just more honest about it than others, which ironically means that those who deny objective reality are more closely following the objective morality that the others are falsely claiming to follow (the Ninth Commandment).

Good we can agree on something.
Our falling short of it does not negate the existence of an objective morality. My point to @T_aquaticus was that objective morality either exists or we are all living based on make believe morality.

I think you are over emphasising on the house part.
Do you think we should all stick to only owning one coat because Jesus asked us to give away the second one?
The main point is about giving to and caring for the poor.

This is where you are wrong. You are equating belief with action. That’s not the case with even subjective morality.
If you take the entire human lifespan, all of us fall short of even our limited subjective standards of morality. For example, everyone agrees lying is wrong (even those who do not believe in an objective morality) Yet I doubt there is anyone here who hasn’t ever lied in their life.

The belief in objective morality equates with accountability to God. Irrespective of whether I adhere to God’s moral code or not a day will come when I will be held to account for my actions and subject to God’s judgement.

So I ask again. Do you believe in the day of Judgement? Because that’s the main difference between an objective morality Vis a Vis subjective morality. The authority that judges us is God in the first case and our own selves in the second.