On Creationism, ID, DI, etc

But Eugenie Scott freely applied the name to ID not just in its political manifestation, but even as a theoretical position. In Behe and in Denton, it’s a theoretical position, and Behe and Denton aren’t creationists – as you yourself have said here on earlier occasions – and Scott knew that they weren’t creationists, but persisted in calling them that. She could easily have qualified with phrases such as “Except for Behe and one or two others, the leading ID proponents are all creationists.” That would have been descriptively accurate. What she chose to do, instead, was to speak inaccurately. And she did that for maximum political effect. When you’re fighting a political war, scholarly nuance goes out the window; what you want to do is use language that will conjure up images of gap-toothed hillbillies waving their Bibles, and thus discredit ID arguments by associating all ID proponents with the most uneducated and fanatical members of the population. (And of course, during this period Scott was purely a political actor; she had long since ceased being an active scientist.)

But I don’t see your evidence, or Puck’s evidence, for even that. The only evidence adduced so far is one book not even published by Discovery, five years ago. Got anything else?

In Behe’s case, very important as one of the founding fathers in the group (along with Dembski, Wells, Nelson, Meyer and a handful of others), one of the most prolific authors, and one of the best-selling (perhaps the best-selling) authors, and the leading Catholic figure in the group, which gives ID a point of connection with millions of potential Catholic readers. In Denton’s case, increasingly important due to being such a prolific author of books and articles on ID and/or fine tuning, and important as someone who is explicitly not a Christian and cannot be claimed to be motivated by Christianity or the Bible.

Yes, this is correct. Faizal is broad-brushing without taking into account significant intra-TE differences. I think he is regarding someone such as Venema as representative of all TEs, but that’s not the case, even of modern TEs, and it’s even less the case if you go back in time; up until about 1990 it was very common for TEs to admit a degree of interventionism alongside natural processes.

One of the problem is that Faizal feels entitled to mandate how terms should be used, to the point where he feels entitled to overrule even the people who first coined the term and clearly defined it when introducing it. Discovery from the outset explicitly distinguished ID from creationism and published articles outlining the differences in detail, but that does not matter to Faizal; he just changes the definition of the words “intelligent design” and “creationism” to suit his argument. And if for a hundred years of popular discourse about origins “creationism” has virtually always included arguments based on a literal reading of Genesis, and has always included the denial that man arose from subhuman forms, so that Denton would not be a creationist in the typical popular sense, that makes no difference to Faizal; he just declares Denton to be a creationist by fiat, or rather, by a contrived definition based not on usage but on the needs of Faizal’s polemics (which require that everyone associated in any way with Discovery must be condemned, and thus labelled by the odious term “creationist”).

Once there is a long-established usage for a term, a usage generally understood by the vast majority of people who hear or read it, it’s unwise to try to change the meaning. It either introduces confusion, or produces head-butting arguments where people insist on their own definition, or both.

If Faizal wants to say that Denton’s understanding of how evolution works is wrong, or that Denton’s case for design is wrong, he has every right to present arguments to prove his points. But if he insists on calling Denton a creationist when Denton would deny it, and when the vast majority of readers would deny it, he creates a totally unnecessary and non-productive debate over words and over who should have the social power to define the words. And he could make every single argument he wants to make against Denton’s views while still conceding that Denton isn’t a creationist. His insistence on rebelling against generally accepted usage appears to be grounded in nothing other than sheer cussedness.

An excellent question. It will be interesting to hear a non-evasive answer.

Precisely. The Wedge manifesto established their real position 24 years ago. We’re all just noting that they are being more honest about their motivations.

There is no ID theory. They don’t even have hypotheses. It’s just political, as you repeatedly tacitly admit.

No, it’s just a political, rhetorical, pseudoscientific position. Let me know when either one of them comes up with an actual scientific hypothesis.

That’s because you’re denying that it’s been presented.

False.

Yes. Why aren’t you paying attention? Too painful?

Note the complete absence of any science in anything you mentioned!

No science there, either!

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You have to stop relying on just two outliers. ID is a political movement and must be judged by its core.

It’s an impression. Evolution News seems to get more creationist by the hour, for example.

Are you quite sure of that? Then what is he?

Sure, but they lie a lot. The cheap suit seems to be wearing out.

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There are considerably more than two ID evolutionists, and probably several among the less-celebrated Discovery Fellows who have not explicitly identified themselves as such, but only Behe and Denton have achieved enough fame to be recognizable names to most people here, so that’s why I cite them. But the number of outliers is entirely irrelevant. My point is about honest vs. dishonest modes of argument; Eugenie Scott was not above using the dishonest modes. It doesn’t matter if her dishonesty only misrepresented 1% of all ID proponents; it’s still wrong, qua dishonesty, and she deserves censure for it. It would have been very easy for her to put footnotes, qualifiers, asides, concessions, etc. into her presentations, the way all good academics do. (Which makes me suspect that she was never a very good academic, even when she did science, because if she had been a good academic, the habit of noting exceptions and of being scrupulously fair to opponents would have carried over into her next line of work.)

That’s possible. I never read Evolution News, unless for some reason someone points out a specific article to me. The reason I rarely look at it is that it is part of the PR department, and I’m interested in the substantive arguments, not the PR framing, so I concentrate on the books, the serious articles in journals and anthologies, etc. Based on the book output of the DI Press in recent years, I’d say Discovery is more “evolutionist” and less “creationist” than it was back at the time of the Dover trial, or, at worst, about the same now as then.

Yes, unless he has changed his religious position since his last public discussions of his religious trajectory. He indicated that he was brought up Christian, and spend a period of his young adult life investigating the great religious questions to try to figure out what he believed, and that his Christian phase was behind him. He expressed no hostility toward his former belief, just a sense that it no longer held him.

He has never said, to my knowledge. Based on Nature’s Destiny, I would infer that he was a Deist, but I don’t know if he would apply that label to himself. (And unlike Faizal, I’m reticent to impose labels on people that they haven’t consented to.) It could also be argued that his position is agnosticism. In any case, at no point in any of his writings does he ever make any argument from Scripture, or indicate any interest in squaring scientific discovery with Scripture. And he has never involved himself in any culture war stuff – debates about teaching design in the schools, attempts to reChristianize society, etc. His writing is exclusively about theoretical questions of order, design, fine tuning, etc. No one could plausibly claim that he was a “creationist,” Old Earth, Young Earth, or any other kind. But that doesn’t stop Faizal from doing so.

The distinctions they make are based on standard usage for “creationism”, so “lying” doesn’t come into the picture. As they define ID (and since it’s their theory, they have the right to define it), it is different from the standard meaning of creationism. If you’re doubting the social or political motive they have for making the distinction, that’s your business, but it doesn’t affect the correctness of the distinction. Indeed, your own objection to Faizal’s application of “creationism” to Denton could have been written by any number of Discovery people. I applaud your reasoning on this point.

Curious choice of words. He’s not “explicitly” a Christian and cannot therefore “be claimed” to be motivated by Christianity or the Bible.

Hmm okay. But is he a Christian in private, and is he motivated by Christianity and the Bible?
It seems to me one can make an educated guess based on his other output and the venues in which it is popular. He’s a theist who thinks the entire universe was designed for human life. He’s not just a deist or something, he thinks there’s a personal God that created the universe for us.

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But you persist in replying again with four long and largely irrelevant paragraphs.

No, I was explaining what your original error was. I understand perfectly what you originally meant, and what your response meant, and have no doubt that you regard neither Meyer nor Gauger as fundamentalists, and doubt that anyone but you would not realise that.

  1. What you originally wrote was not at all ambiguous. It was unintentional.
  2. You didn’t write “of others”.

You squandered any hope of charity a long time ago.

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You complain about my “curious choice of words” but then change the location of my negative so that the choice of words is no longer mine, but yours. I said that Denton was “explicitly not a Christian”, which has a different meaning from “not explicitly a Christian.” So your question “But is he a Christian in private?” is based on an error that you introduced.

One doesn’t need to make an educated guess, since he clearly indicates that he’s no longer a Christian. And by “based on his other output”, what “other output” are you referring to? What works of his have you read in which he directly or indirectly expresses his religious convictions? You need to specify, if you’re making a claim about what he thinks based on what he has written.

This is not relevant to determining what he thinks. Darwin’s ideas were popular among people who believed in compulsory sterilization of “the unfit”, but it does not follow that Darwin endorsed compulsory sterilization of the unfit. If you are trying to determine what an author thinks, you must base that determination entirely on what the author says, not on how some other reader interprets the author.

You misunderstand or misuse the terminology you are employing. There is no warrant for inferring that, because the universe was designed for human life, the designer must be a “personal God.” In Bible-based religion, the phrase “personal God” means something very specific; it means a God who communicates with individuals. There is nothing in Denton’s description of the design of the universe that implies any personal communication between individual human beings and God. There is nothing in Denton’s description of the design in the universe that requires anything beyond Deism, so I gather that you don’t understand what Deism is.

As for whether or not Denton is a “theist”, that depends on what definition you are using. If you are using the term narrowly (as it is most often used nowadays), to mean one who believes in a “personal God” to whom one prays, from whom one seeks guidance, etc., then there is no evidence that Denton is a theist. If you are using the term more broadly, and mean only that he affirms some sort of God who set up the universe to sustain life, including human life, then you are using “theist” to mean nothing more than “Deist”.

And in fact, his God appears to be even less directly active than the God of Deism; the original Deists thought that God directly created man, whereas Denton supposes that God directly created only the first matter, laws, and constants, with man (or more generally, intelligent life) emerging by development from the initial creation. So Denton’s view, as expressed in, say, Nature’s Destiny, is a sort of ultra-Deism, where God is even more remote from us than in the original historical Deism. Which, needless to say, is not Christianity, and not a Biblical view of things.

Denton is in no sense a Christian apologist. At best, he offers a view of the world which is compatible with Christianity, a minimalist “creation” doctrine which is nowhere near sufficient to get one to Christianity. And his view is equally compatible with Judaism, Islam, and even versions of Hinduism (“Hinduism” is not one thing, but a sort of anthology of religious and philosophical views), as well as with non-revealed “religion” such as Deism. So he’s no more an apologist for Christianity than for any of those other positions. His view is also compatible with just plain agnosticism, i.e., with believing that there seems to be something analogous to a mind behind the properties of the universe, but that we can say little about that “mind” other than that it has some tendency to express itself in the form of organized matter. Again, that’s weak stuff if one is trying to paint him as a religious apologist.

Why people who have not read any significant amount of Denton’s writing (which appears to apply to just about everyone posting here, other than myself) would try to make out that Denton has “creationist” religious motivations is a puzzle. I would guess that the motivation is political; Denton has affiliations with Discovery, and since the operative rule here is that anything and everything associated with Discovery must be discredited as Christian apologetics, Denton must be regarded as a Christian apologist, too, whether he actually says anything that would warrant that conclusion or not. We see this in Faizal’s repeated insistence that Denton is a creationist. Since, according to Faizal, everyone at Discovery is a “creationist,” Denton must be one, too, even if his thought lacks the two crucial defining features of “creationism” (i.e., Genesis literalism and denial of evolution). The goal is not to understand Denton’s position, but to smear Denton using guilt by association arguments. I presume that your willingness to speculate about hidden private beliefs of Denton, against his explicit statements, has the same political motivation.

Eddie I really don’t get your extreme reaction here. I have not complained, nor accused someone of something bad or nefarious. I have merely made a simple inference.

Clearly Michael Denton is very likely to be a Christian, living in a historically predominantly Christian culture, writing pop-sci books for a predominantly Christian audience, making cases for theistic views that square solidly with a lot of main-stream Christianity. Not that this is a crime or anything, but it would be silly to pretend that we can’t infer this from his publicly stated beliefs and his pop-sci output, and it would be silly to say it doesn’t influence his thinking. That just makes Michael Denton human.

The idea that we can’t entirely reasonably make these inferences that we do in every other areas of our lives is fatuous.

Please write me another fourty-thousand-forking words.

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And I’m correct in doing so, based on their public statements of their positions. Gauger’s view does not come even close to what is normally called “fundamentalism” in the USA, and if Meyer is a “fundamentalist” (a term which most people are using here without indicating what they mean by it), he certainly has not expressed that conviction in any of the books or articles that I have read. I’ve seen him argue for design based on the properties of life and the natural world, which certainly does not by itself make him a “fundamentalist.” And even if he goes to a somewhat conservative Protestant church (and no one here has offered any information on his personal religious life), that by itself would not make him a “fundamentalist” in the normal meaning of the term. “Fundamentalism” has a distinct meaning, narrower than “Christian” or “Protestant” or even “conservative Protestant”.

If people are going to throw around terms like “fundamentalism” and “creationism” to characterize the beliefs of other people, they need to (a) define those terms, and (b) show by specific passages of writing that they apply to the person in question.

Dude calm down. Seriously.

Nothing about Denton’s private beliefs, should he actually be a Christian, is actually AGAINST anything he’s stated publicly. On the contrary, his public statements are not merely compatible with Christianity, but come so close to being solidly within mainstream Christian thought that this fact alone seems to require an explanation (after all that is why he is so popular among them.) One of which is that he is probably a Christian too.

I’m not going to advocate we burn him at the stake for his heresy. Nor am I accusing him of dishonesty, blindness, insanity, or anything. I believe it is possible to understand Denton’s views on their own terms, and accept some things and reject others, without dismissing him out of hand as just some deluded crackpot.

But I also believe it is reasonable to say that Denton is just as human as everyone else, and that his religious views also likely influences his views on matters. It probably changes his priors.

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It wasn’t an “extreme” reaction; it was a proper scholarly reaction to some very bad writing on your part, writing which included faulty logical inferences and improper definitions of religious/philosophical terms.

You still don’t get the main point, which is that it’s completely improper for you to infer anything about Denton’s religious belief that goes against his explicit statements. Your speculations following “Clearly Michael Denton is very likely to be a Christian…” are impertinent, given that Denton has indicated that he’s not. Do you know better than Denton what Denton believes?

And even if your speculations were not impertinent, they aren’t even based on fact. You don’t know that Denton writes “for a predominantly Christian audience”. How could Denton possibly know, when he wrote Nature’s Destiny in 1998, what percentage of the people who bought or read the book would be Christian? And if Denton couldn’t have known the religious breakdown among his readers, how can you know it? Did you poll a sample of 3,000 readers of Nature’s Destiny and find out how many of them were Christian?

And how does the fact that Denton lives in a “historically predominantly Christian culture” make it likely that Denton is a Christian? There are several million ethnic Jews living in the USA; does the fact that the USA is a “historically predominantly Christian culture” make it “very likely” that those Jews are Christian? And Cornell University sits in the heart of New York State, which was historically filled with “predominantly Christian” people; does it follow that Cornell profs today are “very likely” to be Christian? (If you think that, I would suggest that you check out the religious affiliations of a significant number of Cornell profs.) I also grew up in a “predominantly Christian” culture; when I was in elementary school, 90% of the students in my class had a church affiliation; but today, those same students are in their 60s, and only a very small percentage of them have any connection with any church. I can tell you which of my friends went to a Catholic Church as a child, which to an Anglican, which to a Lutheran, etc., but almost none of them believes in any religion or even in God now. If you were to infer that because my friends grew up in a “predominantly Christian culture” they were “very likely” to be Christian, your inference would be dead wrong.

Finally, you might at least have the conversational decency to admit that you significantly altered my meaning by relocating the word “not” and that you were wrong to do so.

(And by the way, I noticed from the “writing a reply” icon that you had already started writing your reply to my post about 30 seconds after it appeared on the site, so I suspect you had not carefully read my post before you started to react to it. If you read Denton with that degree of hurriedness, it’s not surprising that you don’t know his thought very well.)

Objectively wrong:

The book belongs to the “creation science” genre. Denton’s presentation differs from the usual creation science works in only one respect: he does not actively espouse the creation science claim for a scientific basis in Genesis. The book, therefore, has the appearance of being strictly a book on biology. Intelligent laypersons reading Denton’s book may think that they have encountered a scientific refutation of evolutionary biology. As a serious piece of biology, however, the book could not pass the most sympathetic peer review. In its approach, methods, and style it is straight out of the creation science mold. Abuses typical of creation science literature abound: evolutionary theory is misrepresented and distorted; spurious arguments are advanced as disproof of topics to which the arguments are, at best, tangentially relevant; evolutionary biologists are quoted out of context; large portions of relevant scientific literature are ignored; dubious or inaccurate statements appear as bald assertions accompanied, more often than not, with scorn.

Then there is the small matter of Kitzmiller v. Dover. Heard of it?

Review: "Evolution -- A Theory in Crisis" | National Center for Science Education

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Yes, in the same way that the definition of “apple” is different from the standard meaning of “pippin”. But where is the center of mass of ID? They also say that ID has nothing to do with religion, but that certainly isn’t true.

I’m not doubting it at all. The motive is clear.

Not what Eddie said. He’s explicitly not a Christian. You can disagree with that but don’t misquote.

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This is not the point. I have not said that Denton has no religious views at all, or that whatever religious views he holds have no influence on how he thinks about things. I have said that his religious position is not specifically Christian. You keep insisting that it is, without a shred of evidence.

Finally, note that the original point of discussion here was not whether or not Denton was a Christian, but whether or not he was a “fundamentalist” or “creationist.” So let’s, for the sake of argument, pretend that Denton’s statements, e.g., regarding the “dwindling” of his “personal faith” as he studied religion during his time in Israel, are still compatible with being some sort of Christian, in some broad sense of the word. (An odd sort of Christian, to be sure, who never speaks or writes of Christ, or Jesus, or salvation by faith, or of the Bible as the word of God, etc., but we’ll let that pass.) What’s clear beyond doubt, from his explicit personal statements, is that he is no longer a “fundamentalist” or “creationist”; he details his journey away from fundamentalism and creationism in his essay in the volume Uncommon Dissent. And I think Denton, who by his own account was raised as a fundamentalist and creationist, knows better than Faizal Ali what is involved in those beliefs and whether or not he has walked away from them. And he indicates clearly that he has walked away from them. So whether or not Denton can still be called a Christian (employing a liberal, attenuated sense of the word) is irrelevant to the point at issue. He’s not a fundamentalist or creationist. Faizal Ali is simply wrong.

Again: My line of demarcation is whether someone accepts the theory of evolution as is, or offers reasonable scientific justifications based on a correct understanding of the theory for aspects of the theory that they might question or reject.

In Denton’s specific case, he believes the theory of evolution cannot account for the widespread existence across multiple taxa of the pentadactyl limb. He, instead, believes this is a manifestation of some deeper law that was created by a god.

The theological aspects of his denial is a further criterion that defines him as a creationist, and distinguishes from other assorted individuals who seem to reject evolution for non-religious (but likely still ideological) reasons. Members of the “Extended Synthesis” group would fall into this category.

Basically, various forms of crackpottery.

This isn’t phylogenetics, of course, so there is no objectively correct answer. By some definitions of creationism, not only Behe and Denton will be included, but so will the theistic evolutionists (AKA “evolutionary creationists.”)

My concern with any definition that puts Behe and Denton in the same category as the theistic evolutionists is that it elevates those two dishonest and incompetent charlatans to the same level as legitimate and serious scientists. My categorization, I believe, more closely reflects the real world situation in which theistic evolutions are part of the legitimate scientific community and discourse, and Behe, Denton and the rest of the ID crowd are lumped in with OEC’s and YEC’s as cranks who have nothing to contribute to science but are mere purveyors of badly done religious apologetics.

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Fair enough. I definitely misread what you wrote earlier and just saw the position of the word ‘explicitly’ within the sentence wrong. Then I apologize for misreading you @Eddie.

However, then I’d like to know more about what it is Denton has said about explicitly not being a Christian. Please elaborate. What has he written or stated on that specific question that makes you say that?

Once again, you cite a review of Denton’s first book, even though his thought has changed since that book and all my remarks are focused (as I have explicitly stated innumerable times here) on what he wrote in his later books. And while you might be excused for making this mistake the first time (farther up in the replies in this column), I did point out the mistake to you then, so your repetition of the same tactic (referring to the earlier book when the later books are the topic) cannot be an accident, but must be deliberate. You are evidently trying to mislead readers here by presenting an NCSE criticism of Denton’s first book as if it applies to his subsequent books. But his subsequent books, unlike the first, unambiguously affirm the truth of molecules-to-man evolution. And that alone is sufficient to establish that he is neither creationist nor fundamentalist, as those terms are used by everyone on the planet except for Faizal Ali.

Denton had nothing to do with that case. We are discussing whether or not Denton personally is a fundamentalist or creationist, not whether the Dover school board was fundamentalist or creationist. I quite happily concede that some of the Dover trustees were fundamentalists and creationists. But Denton is neither, as every one of his post-1985 writings demonstrate.

Meanwhile, “Eddie”, perhaps you would be interested in the views of philosopher of science Michael Ruse in the Stanford Encyclopedia. (Although it should suffice to merely note how large a portion of this article entitled “Creationism” is devoted to discussion of ID):

Let us now try to tackle the somewhat complex issue of the relationship between Intelligent Design Theory and traditional Creationism, as discussed earlier in this essay. In significant respects, they are clearly not the same. Most Intelligent Design Theorists believe in a long earth history (even the scientific estimation of a universe of about 15 billion years in age) and most accept overall common descent. In a recent book, The Edge of Evolution , Michael Behe has made this point very clear indeed. However, there are major overlaps, sufficient to encourage some critics (myself included) to refer to Intelligent Design Theory as ‘Creationism-lite’ (Ruse 2017, 114).

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/creationism/#IntDes

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