On the current usage of the term "creationist" as applied to ID

Since you’ve refused to define the modern evolutionary synthesis, you haven’t demonstrated anything. Frankly, I don’t think you’re capable of doing so, without an army of internet sites surrounding you for quick lookups. I don’t think the knowledge is solidly inside you. I don’t think you have anything but the vaguest and most imprecise notion of the contents of “modern evolutionary synthesis” in your head.

I wrote a long chunk showing the errors and shallowness in your account of Denton, but decided not to use it, because you are easily distracted and I thought that if you started defending your poor knowledge of Denton, you would never get around to providing the definition I asked for.

I’ve read all six of Denton’s books, quite closely, and his BioComplexity articles, and other things he has written. You clearly have not read his most recent books, as the confusions and errors in your statements show, and even your statements about his older books (which you probably haven’t read all the way through, if you read them at all) are partly misleading. Your picture of his attitude toward evolutionary theory is distortive. You haven’t done the necessary homework to talk about him. There is no point in talking with you about him until you have done the preparation.

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I don’t need to completely define the modern evolutionary synthesis in order to demonstrate that Denton rejects it. I’ve cited several elements of it which Denton rejects. I’ve also demonstrated that the Disco Institute says the same.

Curious that you’re unable to identify any.

Evidence please.

I will treat “I don’t need to” as a euphemism for “I am not able to” until evidence to the contrary surfaces. And this isn’t just about Denton. You are always waving the phrase “modern evolutionary synthesis” around as a rhetorical tactic, in all kinds of discussions. Never have you committed yourself to any definition of it. I have challenged you on this before, and you backed out then, as you are backing out now. I’m tired of your bluffing, and I’m calling you on it.

I can tell from your remarks about Denton that you have not read most of what he has written in the past five years. That alone disqualifies you from debating about his position.

True, but given an accepted wholly natural accounting for the whale, the case for design then becomes redundant.

I believe the confusion is in pressing the distinction and that ID critics have it exactly right. It is transparent that the argument that natural processes are not adequate to explain irreducible complexity and functional information leads to the positing of supernatural intervention, aliens and extra-dimensional holograms notwithstanding. It is warp and weft. If God created natural law itself, that would be an action of miraculous intervention.

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That isn’t true. When asked previously, I’ve described it as a combination of variation, inheritance, selection, and time, and identified these four specific mechanisms, on this forum.

  1. Genetic mutation.
  2. Genetic flow.
  3. Gene drift.
  4. Natural selection.

You know what the modern evolutionary synthesis doesn’t involve? Guidance or direction from an intelligent designer. You know what Denton’s version of evolution involves? Guidance or direction from an intelligent designer. I’ve also pointed out that the Disco Institute has said the same thing I’m saying. You didn’t even attempt to address their article.

But this is of course irrelevant. Can you find any evidence that Denton accepts the modern evolutionary synthesis? If not, why not?

No, you’re just using this as an excuse to run away from a discussion you can’t handle.

Who wrote this?

It is common knowledge that the claim that an active intellect informed [sic] nature has been on uneasy terms with the mainstream of science. To anyone trained in science, the reason is no mystery. It involves the supernatural.

Was that an ID critic?

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You’ve stated some elements of the “modern evolutionary synthesis,” but not put them into the form of a clear definition, which makes it hard to relate the elements.

That said, let’s look at the two lists of elements you mention:

Variation
Inheritance
Selection
Time

Mutation
Gene Flow
Drift
Natural Selection (a repetition from the first group?)

Now, does Denton reject any of these elements? Does he say that one or more of them plays no role in evolution? Can you show me where he says so? I know of no place in his works where he denies the reality of any of these elements.

Does Denton perhaps weight these elements differently from other evolutionary theorists? Well, if so, since you’ve given no indication of the proper weighting of each element, then weighting them differently from other theorists wouldn’t put one outside the modern evolutionary synthesis. Your description is so loose – basically just a list of elements – that anyone who accepts them all, in any weighting whatsoever, would be within the synthesis. If you want to exclude anyone based on weighting, you have to put more specifics into it.

So based on your non-definition and imprecise account, we can’t say the Denton rejects any of your key elements, or weights them wrongly. Thus far, then, he is not outside of the modern evolutionary synthesis as you have explained it.

Now:

Yes, I know that perfectly well.

Not so fast. It depends on what is meant by “guidance” or “direction.” If you mean miraculous intervention into the natural order, then no, Denton’s version explicitly does not involve that. Once the evolutionary process starts, it continues via natural causes. But if you mean something else, then you have to say what it is.

In any case, if Denton does not reject any of the elements you say are found in the modern synthesis, but only adds an element – the element of design – then his view of evolution could be seen as a supplementation of that synthesis rather than a complete alternative to it. I’m not saying that this is in fact the case; I’m saying that based on what you’ve said about the synthesis, Denton could be onside with it in every respect except his acceptance of a role for design. In other words, he would be an “evolutionist” (by your standards, being within the synthesis) who affirms “evolution” (as you understand it, including not only common descent but also the list of causes that you give), but would argue that there is a neglected element that should be added to the synthesis, i.e., design.

If you say, no, Denton does not merely supplement the synthesis with one new element, but actually rejects a major part of the synthesis, the “Darwinian” part (mutation filtered by selection), that’s already covered, since he doesn’t say the Darwinian causes don’t exist; he affirms them, but just weights them less than, say, Dawkins would. And you’ve given no indication of a cutoff point where “too little of Darwinian causation” would exclude one from the synthesis.

Curiously, you make no mention of some things which are part of modern evolutionary thought – endosymbiosis and horizontal gene transfer. You also don’t discuss the contributions of evo-devo theorists at all; are they not part of the modern synthesis? Or are all their ideas covered under your other categories? I doubt it, since some of them, like Stuart Newman, deal with factors from physics and geometry which don’t seem to fit under your categories. Thus, your account of “the modern evolutionary synthesis” seems to be both incomplete, and vague. I don’t get the impression that you have anything like a mastery of current evolutionary theory at your fingertips. I therefore have no confidence in your ability to apply your loose grab-bag of concepts to the thought of Denton, especially since it’s evident to me that you haven’t read very much (if any) of his most recent work.

If your point is that not only ID critics, but also ID people themselves, sometimes blur the distinction between “designed” and “miraculous,” and thus send mixed signals to their readers, I would agree. But the conceptual tools for making the distinction are found within ID theory, even if not all ID proponents handle them with equal skill.

How you slice evolutionary mechanisms is to some degree a matter of taste, but horizontal gene transfer can be slotted into either gene flow or variation. Endosymbiosis can be seen to be, like speciation, a result of the interaction of the population genetics processes of variation, gene flow (including intergenomic gene transfer), drift and selection.

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Not hard for someone who actually knows the subject. Oh wait…

This is not about weighting. I have already been explicit about what Denton rejects, and you are still avoiding it. You are also avoiding the Disco Institute article arguing that Denton rejects evolution. Why?

So you don’t even recognize where it came from. I didn’t think you would. Do you agree that the claim that an active intellect has formed nature, involves the supernatural?

How is the guiding being done? Is it via artificial selection, or via genetic manipulation?

The former is evolution. The latter is design.

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Which, I gather, is why you didn’t – or couldn’t – do it.

No, you’re the one who is avoiding. I asked you point-blank which of your list of factors of evolution that Denton rejected. You can’t find an example of a rejection of a single one of them.

Regarding the passages from the Discovery blurb, which you complain I failed to comment on:

Yes, Darwinian evolution – not “evolution” of any kind. The adjective is important. And when Denton writes:

That is not a prelude to replacing “orthodox evolutionary theory” with “creationism,” but with a different evolutionary theory. If you actually read his newer books, you would know something of the contents of that different evolutionary theory. But you haven’t, so you don’t.

The passage is from the 1984/1992 Mystery of Life’s Origin, Epilogue, p. 201.

We have been talking about Denton, and in Nature’s Destiny, the only “creation” that is miraculous is the creation of the universe with its laws and constants, after which all “creation” is accomplished by secondary causes, as the universe unfolds. However, the guys in Mystery of Life’s Origin suggest that the origin of life on earth was miraculous as well. I’m not sure what point you are drawing from this. Instead of asking cagey questions, why don’t you just state what you are getting at?

The point I was getting at earlier is that “design” and “miracle” are not necessarily inextricably intertwined. Not all things that are “designed” need a miracle to come into being. An animal body is “designed” – there is a template for it that exists before the animal takes on its body. But the delivery system is natural: the reproductive system. Denton suggests that the delivery system for all designs is natural, except for the initial creation of the universe. In contrast, the MLO guys add one more non-natural origin, the origin of life. Stephen Meyer would appear to add at least one more: the Cambrian Explosion. And some ID writers have written as if there was a special act of creation for each “kind” of animal. But none of these assertions of special miraculous creation are required by design theory as ID understands it. It is not as if designed things can only be brought into being by direct creation. Nothing in ID theory says that. There may be other reasons for insisting that a miracle would be necessary, but they are not from design theory.

Creationism, on the other hand, does say that. Creationism affirms much more than just one supernatural act at the beginning of the universe. It affirms a whole series of supernatural acts that establish inorganic and organic nature. And it affirms this because it believes that is what the Bible teaches.

Denton’s position is not creationism, because his universe is (to borrow a phrase from TE literature) “fully gifted” to produce life, all the species, and man. It does not need special discrete miracles.

Obviously any mainstream, orthodox Christian (I can’t speak for Christadelphians) will affirm direct, unmediated “creation” on at least one occasion, at the beginning of the universe. I certainly agree that at least for that one creation, the supernatural must be involved. But it does not follow that the production of all subsequent things will require more supernatural actions. It is at least in principle possible for God to design the world so that it has the capacity to produce spin-off “creations” of its own. So I don’t insist, as a matter of principle, on lots and lots of special creative actions. On the other hand, I’m not averse to them, either. And this is where I find ID preferable to either creationism or TE.

The TEs, with their high capacity for being embarrassed by negative comparisons of their religious faith with the secular beliefs of their fellow non-Christian scientists, are obsessed with the idea of, if possible, reducing the number of special creations to the theoretical minimum of 1; the creationists, on the other hand, due to their tendency to read Genesis with a certain mechanical literalness, are obsessed with the idea of many special creations, and the more the merrier. ID theory has no preference one way or the other. So its theoretical attitude is more like “special divine actions if necessary, but not necessarily special divine actions.” Each case can be considered on its merits. That’s a very sane attitude toward origins questions.

Of course, not everyone here will agree with that. Some will insist that it is the duty of any scientific person to insist on purely natural origins for everything. I don’t share that view. Nor did Newton, Boyle, Kepler, etc. That attitude among scientists is fairly recent.

That’s not confusion, that’s seeing through the IDers attempts to pretend that they don’t mean “miraculous intervention” when they write “design”. If the IDers spent any time at all talking about how this design might have been done in a non-miraculous way, you might have a point - but they don’t.

But that explicitly is not what IDers mean by “design”, since they, including outliers like Behe and Denton, are unanimously saying that wholly natural non-miraculous development out of the forms of earlier creatures (we call this “evolution”, btw) is incapable of producing whales.

Having failed to redefine “creationism” to not include ID, and failed to redefine evolution to include “design”, you are now trying to redefine “design” to include evolution.

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Quite so. The conceptual tool is remembering that IDers are pretending that ID is not a subset of creationism, in order to avoid rulings about creationism being taught in American schools. The distinction is thus made by checking who you are addressing, and using “designed” in contexts involving ID critics, educators and lawyers, while using “miraculous” in contexts involving ID sympathisers, other creationists and funding sources. The reason for the mixed signals is that many creationists are either too careless, too stupid or too honest to keep up the pretence.

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That description fits Michael Behe’s views perfectly.

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Please document this statement with precise passages from Behe’s works – or retract the statement.

You don’t have the slightest idea what Denton says. Obviously you have not read his work. You seem to be from the same school of thought as 90% of the atheists who post here, i.e., “Rather than go to the trouble of actually studying an author before I talk about him, I’ll just make stuff up.”

@Eddie,

I agree with you. Assertions of special miraculous creation is not a required stance for Intelligent Design proponents. You and I have seen the video where Prof. Behe says the “divine” part of God employing intelligent design comes in the planning of how the natural cosmos unfolds - - even before the first moment of the existence of the Cosmos.

But what do we say about the creationists who embrace Intelligent Design, but not Behe’s version of it? Isn’t that Meyer’s odd position? That evolution, even with God’s plans, can’t work?

This is not a trick question; I have never understood how Meyer conceives of I.D. at work.

By “guided evolution” I mean that God poofs mutations into genomes or something like that. It’s possible for it to be design and evolution at the same time. Now this may be because I’m a systematist and common descent is the feature of evolution I care most about, but that’s my cutoff point: the tree. Stuff that happens on the tree isn’t a big concern.