Potentially Interesting New Book by Eric Hedin

I don’t agree that my questions presented a false dichotomy, John. Here’s how I read your comment.

Based on my prior experience with the PS forum, I assumed that (1) by “legitimate scientific” you were referring to scientific theories that adhere a priori to philosophical naturalism by only positing natural causes and that (2) “non-scientific” and “beyond-the-fringe notions” were catchall terms referring to any theory that violates that philosophical constraint.

Now, if that assumption does not hold, then I apologize. I didn’t ask first what you meant by those terms. If that assumption does not hold, feel free to correct me by explaining what you meant by those phrases.

Otherwise, I believe my summation holds.

You are off to a bad start. You shouldn’t make such wild assumptions. Further, none of that seems to have anything to do with your false dichotomy.

No, you don’t apologize. That was a not-pology.

By “legitimate scientific controversy” I mean a controversy that involves competing hypotheses capable of being tested by observations. Consensus should be accepted because it explains the data better than alternatives, not just because authorities agree. Is that clear now?

What you believe isn’t relevant. You need to provide actual reasoning. The false dichotomy was simple: you left out that students should not be informed about their arguments because they are not legitimate arguments (in the sense I describe above), and that they should accept the consensus because it explains the evidence.

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What is the scientific (or philosophical) difference between:

and

?

Students should learn the material required to become competent in their chosen fields of study. They don’t have time to analyze arguments (pro or con) from fringe movements.

This thing about being “exposed” to views and arguments from fringe theories sounds superficially reasonable, until you realize everything students have to learn is somewhere somehow opposed by one or more competing fringe (if not crackpot or conspiracy) movements.

Do we need to “expose” students to arguments by geocentrists when they learn astronomy, flat-Earthism when studying geography, arguments by neo-vitalists when studying the molecular basis of nutrition and metabolism, the Thor-theory of thunderstorms, the Poseidon-theory of tsunamis, the Divine-retribution-as-punishment-for-gay-marriage theory of terrorist attacks, the promiscuous-bare-breasted-women-theory of Earthquakes, and so on and so forth? Should institutions (or the students who come there to study) be required to purchase books written by multiple competing fringe and crackpot views so students can learn all that material too? How much extra time should we allot? Will they be tested on their ability to espouse vitalistic conceptions of life?

Proponents from fringe movements always want special treatment for their views. There simply isn’t time for it, and once you open the flood gates for one, all the others can complain they’re not getting special treatment too.

The time and place to study fringe and crackpot theories are :

  1. In your own spare time.
    and/or
  2. Once you’ve graduated.

Then you can devote all the time you want to finding out what you think makes the most sense, on all the topics you could ever hope for.

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Maybe an example will suffice:

One hypothesizes that there exists a supernatural power that will cause a rock to stay suspended in the air after you let it go if you pray to the Christian god.

You try it many times, but the rock drops to the ground each time.

The hypothesis is thereby falsified.

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Do you think that positing only natural causes for natural phenomena necessarily requires philosophical naturalism? Why is methodological naturalism not an option?

One reason for a priori assumption of a natural cause is heuristic. Discovery is more often than not the result of a lot of hard work, only to have yet more question present themselves. What would be the state of our scientific understanding if all those then intractable problems were instead consigned to a transcendent world of gremlins and fairies? What keeps the effort progressing is the conviction that something has to be an underlying reason, and the object is to find it. Where is the “no go zone”, where you maintain it becomes close minded or arrogant, to presume and pursue natural causation?

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If there’s no difference, then you have shot yourself in the foot, since if ID hypotheses can’t be tested by observations then they aren’t science, and they don’t deserve to be considered in a science course.

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It can be pedagogically useful to explain to students how some false beliefs were overthrown, e.g., the natural, empirical perception that the earth is flat can be overthrown by reasoning about what happens to a ship and its mast receding in the distance. Such discussion is helpful for showing how scientists reason. Another example is the Michelson-Morley experiment, regarding the ether, which we were taught about in ninth-grade science. Why did scientists stop believing in the ether? It is pedagogically useful to explain this.

Well, I agree that there isn’t time to cover even every minority theory, let alone every fringe and crackpot theory. But the question whether there is teleology in nature is not a “fringe” notion, but one that has been asked over and over again throughout the entire history of science, from ancient times to the present. The greatest thinkers, from Lucretius and Aristotle through to Boyle and Newton and Lamarck and Darwin and Bergson and Hoyle, have discussed it. It’s irresponsible not to devote some classroom time to notions of teleology and to explain why scientists tend to avoid teleological explanation – while conceding that the exclusion of all teleological considerations, though useful heuristically, may have a cost, i.e., lack of completeness of understanding of nature.

The whole point of Hedin’s course at Ball State was to explore these larger questions, which unfortunately are not typically considered at all in science classes. His course – which no one was forced to take – allowed students to think more clearly about the foundations and methods and metaphysical background of doing science. This is healthy. Almost every subject in the university – except the natural sciences – demands that its students do some critical thinking about the epistemological foundations of their subject. This is done very often in religion, sociology, anthropology, political science, history, literary criticism, and so on. I was shocked, when I studied university science, by how little interest professors and undergrads showed about these larger questions. I went in with the naive idea that science students and profs (or at least some of them) would be all fired up about foundational questions in the metaphysics and epistemology of scientific knowledge, that they would be constantly discussing things like Newton’s General Scholium, Schrodinger’s thoughts on life, Kuhn’s discussion of science as paradigm-driven, Hoyle’s remarks on fine-tuning, Bergson’s critique of Darwinism, Einstein’s semi-philosophical debates over chance and other aspects of physical reality with his fellow-physicists etc. I found nothing like that in most profs or most students. Most just wanted to do detail work within the paradigm in one little corner of science, and found “big picture” questions uninteresting and unimportant. The mentality was that of a polytechnic, not, to my mind, that of a university. But in Hedin’s class, it’s clear that students were not only allowed but encouraged to think about science in a big-picture way, and that’s all for the good.

I’m not here defending everything Hedin says in his book, which I have not finished yet. I am defending his overall enterprise, from a pedagogical point of view. Students who want to think about the big questions of life in relation to what is learned from the natural sciences should have a chance to do so. Hedin was not advocating belief in aliens at Roswell, that Bacon wrote Shakespeare, or that there is a civilization inside a hollow earth; he was not advocating any “fringe theories.” He was inviting students to do some big-picture thinking about the relationship between the truths uncovered by natural science and the truths human beings learn by other means. If that kind of thinking isn’t done in universities, it sure won’t be done anywhere else in society. The university, the place where scientists, philosophers, theologians, historians etc. can meet and exchange ideas, is exactly the right place to do it.

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Testing the hypotheses!

You are advocating for the DI, which neither advances hypotheses capable of being tested by observations nor tests any themselves, presenting science as something that is done retrospectively.

Real science is done (mostly) prospectively, by testing the empirical predictions of mechanistic hypotheses.

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No more irresponsible than neglecting to mention the luminiferous ether. I agree, the ether could be useful as an illustration of the scientific method. But there are other ways it could be done. Similarly, it could be illustrative to mention teleology, which would have the added advantage of serving as a cautionary tale that there remain people who still hold to this archaic and discredited idea, as you have just demonstrated. But there should be no difficulty providing a thorough scientific education without making a single mention of the concept.

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Good.

Yes, but it’s hard to imagine a good scientific education that never discusses past theories and why they were abandoned. I don’t say that all wrong ideas have to be presented and refuted, which would take too much time, but a selection of some of the more instructive cases where wrong ideas were tested and then abandoned seems to be a pedagogical device that is pretty widely used. The flat earth/round earth example is particularly good for showing that science is not based on mere empiricism (because the everyday visual “data” apparently show that the earth is flat) but requires reasoning. When one reasons from the changing view of the ship’s mast and sail, one realizes that the empirical appearance of flatness is wrong, that only a curved earth can explain the phenomena.

One can provide thorough scientific training without mentioning teleology, perhaps, but mere training is not education. Training is what you get at a carpentry school, community college, polytechnic, etc. Education is what you get (or ought to get) at a university. Education is not merely training in how to be successful within a discipline; education promotes self-consciousness (in the educated person) about the ultimate foundations (metaphysical and epistemological) of one’s discipline. I can’t imagine a fully self-conscious “modern scientific” understanding of nature without full awareness of the historical and theoretical alternatives, e.g., a teleological understanding of nature. Indeed, modern science didn’t get started until people like Descartes and Bacon consciously contrasted the two understandings of nature and gave reasons for adopting the modern one.

The fact that most scientists now work within the modern understanding on autopilot, without self-consciously thinking about the rejected teleological alternative, doesn’t mean the metaphysical and epistemological alternatives aren’t there; it just means that they are no longer thought about. The philosophically and historically aware scientist, the scientist who likes reading and thinking outside of specialist journals and the like, may think about such questions from time to time, but most scientists I’ve talked to, in their routine work, never think about them, and just take for granted that the application of their methods is the right thing to do. Lots of scientists are very well trained in how to conduct experiments, how to produce data, and how to relate that data to the current paradigm in their field; it’s not my experience that very many of them think about foundational assumptions of science itself, how science compares and contrasts with other ways of knowing, etc.

Hedin’s book raises the latter sort of question, and that sort of question, while it may not a necessary part of scientific training, in the narrow sense, should be part of a scientific education, in the broad sense. A scientist who never reflects on the nature of his own enterprise is just a high-level technician – extremely clever and competent, maybe, but still just a high-level technician. An educated person – whether scientist or social scientist or literary critic or historian – knows not only a set of advanced techniques necessary for work in his field, but also reflects upon the foundations of his field and its relation to human knowledge overall.

I dunno. There’s so much pseudoscience around that I would advocate that we teach students about a few representative cases.

Ahh but you’re not responding to [Insert names of books, articles, videos, and blog posts by prominent flat-Earth scholars], you’re just making up your own straw-man versions of them and knocking them down. Students should learn from flat-Earth proponents by buying their books and reading them, and get tested on them, right? And queue long philosophical arguments about the entailments of the observation that masts disappear below the horizon, technobabble about distortions in the paths of light in the atmosphere, and supposed contradictory observations made under different circumstances. Also there’s these quotes from different experts and authorities who say things that imply the Earth is really flat, and that evidence for this is suppressed in public schools, universities, and scientific institutions by the Darwin round-Earth lobby. Because there was this flat Earther who got booted somewhere.

Sorry, I’m just playing the flat-Earth version of an ID-proponent here.

Of course, one could say the exact same thing you’re doing about various forms of ID-creationism. That it has already had it’s moment in the sun and been (to the extend that some pro-ID arguments are testable scientific hypotheses) exposed as false and relegated to the dustbin of false scientific ideas (such as the concept of irreducible complexity has been).

But hey I think you’re right on that last point. There is some pedagogical use to showing how the few, actually testable ID concepts such as Irreducible Complexity, have been shown not to be evidence against evolution, much less evidence for design.

It’s also effectively untestable (which is why people can keep asking it, as it is essentially impossible to test without literally knowing the answer beforehand), and thus can’t be part of any science course.

And it keeps being discussed by philosophers, scientists, and theologians, and will be till the end of time, exactly because it is fundamentally an unanswerable question. Anything that occurs could be taken to be some “end” desired and intended by some planning intelligence. There’s no conceivable observation you couldn’t rationalize as either a planned goal, or a stepping stone to some future end. It could never fail to fit the data, thus can never amount to a scientific hypothesis. That’s why it’s not and shouldn’t be wasted any time on in science class.

Even a fully random chaotic mess that could not be made sense of could be taken to be an “end” unto itself, that some obscure chaos-loving intelligence deigned to create.

You can go study and believe in teleology in your own spare time as much as you want.

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If someone has reached the university level in science without yet realizing this, I would say they are suffering more serious deficits that will not be remedied just by making mention of the fact that some people have believed in a flat earth.

Yes, and that is for the same reason that they are not likely to spend much time contemplating the luminiferous ether, phlogiston, or the theory of bodily humours. The main difference between those outdated and irrelevant concepts and the equally outdated and irrelevant concept of teleology is that the former are not associated with religious preconceptions that remain wildly held, and therefore little motivation to try convince oneself they are still relevant.

I agree. But if that is the goal, then it can easily be accomplished without having someone who supports a particular form of pseudoscience teaching it as if it is legitimate science, which appears to be what happened with Hedin’s course.

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Are you saying there isn’t a difference?

Maybe one could, but as I’ve never defended “ID-creationism,” that would not apply to me.

Since ID, per se, is not “against evolution” (i.e., not against the notion of descent with modification), there is no refutation here. ID is in conflict only with metaphysically charged versions of “evolution” in which the processes of change are claimed to be utterly with guidance or planning of any kind.

It might be untestable in the sense of not being susceptible to the sort of testing that experimental sciences typically employ. It does not follow that there is no evidence for it. I cannot think of any scientific test that would prove that the Pyramids could not have arisen by a wildly unlikely but still physically possible sequence of natural causes (in a reality with an infinite number of universes, all possible sequences of physical causes will eventually occur somewhere, at some time, by sheer fluke), but I don’t think, and nobody else thinks, that they arose without design. The evidence that the Pyramids were designed is overwhelming, and would remain so even if all our historical records concerning ancient Egypt were lost. And if “science” declares this conviction of design of the Pyramids to be “effectively untestable”, why should I or anyone else care? If science is blind to design, it does not follow that design does not exist, any more that if you were blind, it would follow that the Mona Lisa or the Taj Mahal did not exist. The limitations of scientists and their methods is not a limitation on reality.

Is there ever a single thing that philosophers and theologians stop discussing, other than those that have been definitively answered by science?

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No. You’re the one saying there isn’t a difference. If that isn’t what you meant, what did you mean?

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And since any imaginable event can be declared to be intended to occur by invisible intenders pushing the atoms around, it’s still a useless untestable ad-hoc rationalization instead of a science.

There’s absolutely no reason to spend even a second teaching the idea that everything that occurs could be willed to happen by invisible intenders invisibly intending it to do so as part of people’s scientific education.

No, but we also don’t waste time teaching students of all the different things that possibly could be the case but still haven’t been found to be so.

Well you’ll be happy to know the pyramids are thought to have been built by humans. But I suppose we have to buy books by the ancient aliens proponents to teach the alternative that they were created by extraterrestrial space-travelers in the ancient past.

I can just hear the geocentrists and flat-Earthers scream this.

Well if you want to have your alternative taught as part of standard scientific education, I think that’s why you should care.

But it isn’t. Lots of design has been found by science. Design of termite, wasp, and ant-nests by termites, wasps and ants for example. Design of man-made artifacts by humans. And so on.

It’s just that the thing you so desperately want to be designed by God haven’t been found to be by application of the scientific method, and this bothers you because you want the prestige and authority science gives you to advance your apologetic and political goals.

And here we come full circle to discover that in his desire to use science as an apologetics tool, @Eddie is forced to discard science itself because it doesn’t give him what we wants. When his conjecture that there is “teleology in nature” is revealed to be untestable claptrap then Eddie proceeds to complain that there is something wrong with the scientific method itself. The Flat Earth society agrees.

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No, I asked a question, and I’m still not sure what your answer was:

Testing the hypotheses!

Here’s why I ask: If by “testing the hypotheses,” you mean testing by the methods of the empirical sciences and inferring only natural causes, then I don’t see what distinguishes that from limiting yourself to theories that adhere a priori to philosophical naturalism.

So maybe if you’ll clarify your answer, I’ll understand it better?