Randal Rauser: Is the Atheist My Neighbor?


(Daniel Deen) #23

Welcome @Randal_Rauser. Thanks for sharing some insight with us. I’ll also be putting this book on my list to peruse when my semester begins to slow down.

This is all too true. I have a problem with some of the apologetic and Christian books never driving to primary sources, but thinking through a position already filtered through our own team’s secondary sources. Not helpful at trying to understand one’s neighbors.

I did work with Ruse at Florida State, finishing my PhD in 2015. All I can say is that it was a blast working with him. He has written a book called, Can a Darwinian Be A Christian, where I remember telling him that his understanding of Christianity is better than many Christians! His answer to the title’s question was: Yes, but you need to liberalize your Christianity. He has a naturalistic Humean proclivity that disallows miracles except as pure existential experiences. Jesus did not and could not rise from the dead for Ruse.

This was more than likely due to the fact that he thinks Christians are irrational to believe in “real” miracles. It really is a sticking point for him, as it is, I imagine, for most atheists! His Quaker background, however, he often credits with his curious nature and educational career of working with people from all backgrounds. He really has been blessed with great Christian friends, he talks about it often. He used to throw big BBQ’s on Sundays were he would invite all his students, faculty friends, and then community friends for eating, drinking, and merry making. I remember bumping into local pastors and youth workers at those gatherings. In some sense, he was running the opposite of @Randal_Rauser in terms of providing ahteistic apologetics through hospitality!

I think this is largely correct in that the apologetic mind is one that is tacitly trained into formal debate modes. I wouldn’t blame Craig for this, but more those who are distilling Craig’s content second hand, training up the youth as little clone apologists. I’ve worked hard with my students at the college to get their apologetic facts straight, but then also work hard at conversing with their neighbor’s to learn where their neighbor’s actual questions arise. In fact, much to the chagrin of my colleagues I imagine, I highly encourage students to spend an evening at the local casino playing $5 blackjack and conversing with the people who come and go from the table. Apologetic books don’t quite capture the images of humanity that arise when students meet the colorful cast of characters that hang around $5 blackjack tables!

If I’m following @swamidass here, I think he is right that while the facts of the resurrection can be used in mode of apologetics being questioned here, the resurrection, facts and all, are the locus of the hope from 1 Peter 3:15. Thus, the apologetic conversation, and evangelism generally, is to proclaim the promise of eternal life granted through Jesus’ death and resurrection. Ultimately, apologetics is useless if it isn’t centering on that death and resurrection. Antony Flew was not a win for Christianity in his conversation from atheism to deism/theism. Philosophically, it was a win, but it really only showed that philosophers can change their minds about some basic presuppositions they hold, big deal, philosophers and scientists do this all the time. Why don’t we role the red carpet out for someone who moves from an antirealist to realist position on numbers?

Or, at the very least, recognize that we may not know. I always push the Socratic line from his famous Apology, that “wisdom is knowing that we do not know,” coupled with his critique of the various important people of Athen’s having knowledge that was beyond the realm of human possibility. Take home is that human knowledge, even human theological knowledge, is fallible and incomplete. I think this Socratic point meshes nicely with Biblical verses such as Proverbs 9:10 where the beginning of Wisdom is the fear of the Lord. We should always be willing to admit that we simply don’t know – it often invites a mutual search for understanding.

When I do any apologetic teaching these days, I use 1 Peter 3:15 to zero in on the important Christocentric aspect of hope in the verse, but I quickly move to Colossians to talk about “method”:

Col 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Col 4:5-6
Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

It doesn’t exclude what you’ll are calling the Biola method, but opens the conversation to a much broader conversation about apologetic methodology.

I think I’m on the same page with you here. I don’t have time to wade into the Jesus and Theism thread today, but I really don’t see the need to hash out logical priors in this case. Scripture seems pretty clear that knowing Jesus is knowing God. A logical hierarchy seems a rather impossible task outside of how Scripture speaks about approaching God through Christ due to the nature of the Trinity.

I look forward to seeing how this thread develops with @Randal_Rauser!

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #24

6 posts were merged into an existing topic: Jesus and Theism


Dr Rauser, great quote. I have to say that your books and blog have helped me tremendously in both remembering that God is the source of all truth (and thus understands where we’re coming from, even if we don’t fully understand it); and opened my mind to my own prejudices, improving communication with others.

“What’s So Confusing About Grace?” is a grace-ful book that re orients us to God as the source of theology, in my opinion. It recounts a maturing of your faith through time. It’s another that I get more from, the more I read it. “You’re Not as Crazy As I Think” would help a college Bible study in communication with nonChristians and Christians of other types, I think.

(Randal Rauser) #26

Disclaimer Yesterday, I apparently reached the maximum number of 1-day comments allowed for a new commenter. Hence, the delay in my further comments.

Evangelical/Progressive is a continuum. For example, in the United Kingdom, I’d simply be an evangelical and much of what passes for “evangelical” in the United States would be classified by (many) Brits as fundamentalist. (Canada sort of splits the difference.)

So what’s the difference? Perhaps the easiest thing is to give some examples:

I reject the literal-where-possible hermeneutic which treats so-called “literal” reading as the default approach to Bible interpretation.

Consequently, I find default “literal” interpretations of Genesis 1-3 or the millennium in Revelation 20 to be implausible (at best).

This leaves me fully reconciled to theistic evolution as the means by which God brought around cosmic existence and biological diversity.

I critique penal substitution as an adequate theory of atonement (much to the chagrin of many Calvinists).

I don’t have any political allegiance, certainly not that which would be called “Republican” in the United States.

I have pointed out that there are multiple difficulties with the concept of biblical inerrancy and thus it is inadvisable to use the term as a simplistic boundary marker between evangelical insiders and outsiders.

I am an annihilationist (that is, posthumous punishment occurs by way of a resurrection that results in the cessation of personal existence).

I strongly defend inclusivism (i.e. the possibility of being reconciled to God in Christ without having heard the Gospel or professed a specific “sinner’s prayer”)

And so on.

(Randal Rauser) #27

Thanks, Randy. Right now, I’m developing a course on theological autobiography in which we read several theological autobiographies ranging from Augustine’s “Confessions” to my own book as a way into learning to understand and share our own journeys toward theological understanding and relationship.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #28

Sorry about that. Fist day limit should be lifted now.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #29

I’d love to see that reading list when you are done.

(Randal Rauser) #30

At this point, the course will probably consist of five textbooks:

Altson, Renee. Stumbling Toward Faith. Zondervan, 2009.

Augustine, Confessions. Henry Chadwick, trans. Oxford, 2009.

Cone, James. My Soul Looks Back. Orbis, 2012.

Harris, Joshua. Dug Down Deep: Building Your Life on Truths that Last. Multnomah, 2011.

Rauser, Randal. What’s So Confusing About Grace? Two Cup Press, 2017.

Honorable mentions include C.S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy and Thomas Merton, The Seven Storey Mountain.

I’ll also include a few essays. So far I have one entry:

Jenson, Robert W. “A Theological Autobiography, to Date.” Dialog: A Journal of Theology, vol.

46, no. 1 (2007), 46-54.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #31

I hope you include a story from.a scientist too.

There are questions for you in the thread above. Looking forward to hear your thoughts.

Also several of your other books are being mentioned. Can you give us some short summaries of the ones you think are most important now?

(Randal Rauser) #32

Good suggestion!

I’ve written three apologetic debate books. One of them, The Swedish Atheist, the Scuba Diver, and Other Apologetic Rabbit Trails seeks to recreate a sort of Socratic dialogue in a coffee shop. Among other things, it’s one of the few apologetic books that deals directly with the problem of biblical violence and offers some suggestions for Christians to think through the problem.

My book with Justin Schieber, An Atheist and a Christian Walk into a Bar, is a rigorous but irenic exchange in the mode of a conversation. Justin and I each select three topics to debate and we’re still friends at the end!

God or Godless is the book I wrote with John Loftus. While Loftus is a rather caustic new atheist type, he does a good job in that book as we each argue ten theses in favor of our worldview for a total of twenty short debates that can easily be digested.

I’ve written several others, but I’ll mention just one more. In You’re not as Crazy as I Think, I seek to overcome the opposition between groups and to provide a basis for more meaningful interaction. In particular, I include an important chapter calling out fundamentalist anti-intellectualism among both Christians and atheists.

I’m off to church now, but I’ll field some further questions this afternoon.


(Alan Fox) #33

Whilst I’m flattered Joshua should think of inviting me to participate, I’m not sure I can live with discourse “quirkiness”. I got an email inviting me three days before the thread was open and now I see it will close automatically in 13 hours. Why?

Regarding do I, an atheist, hate God? I find the question rather offensive. If pressed, I will say that gods and all their trappings are inventions of human imagination. Thus I hate God (which one?) about as much as I hate Harry Potter or the tooth fairy.

I should say I’m an apatheist, live and let live, and nor do I live in the US ( I live in France currently) so I’m not rubbing against Christians much at all in daily life. Whist France is culturally Catholic, the influence here is negligible.

I also think intellectual discussion on the merits of particular beliefs usually takes place among believers. First you need the emotional attachment and the intellectual justification follows. My background is English Anglicanism, almost atheism, so maybe they missed the child of seven due to hypocrisy or lack of commitment.

So I’m happy if religious belief works for others. I’m not happy when religious authority is invoked or exploited in the political arena. Don’t we have right-wing fundamentalists to blame for Trump?

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #34

This is just now Office Hours work. We have defined periods of time in which to interact with a scholar. In this case I might extend it by some hours too. This gives us a chance to have deeper interactions with them with requiring them to commit an undefined amount of time to the forum.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #35

That is exactly right, and the point @Randal_Rauser has been making on your behalf.

There seems to be a very large range in anglicanism, from almost atheist to NT Wright. Why do you think that is?

I agree entirely.

(Alan Fox) #36

This is not the way to develop an argument! :slight_smile:

(Alan Fox) #37

My experience is the UK. There was a huge loss of both faith and respect for the old order beginning with the conditions and aftermath of the First World War and continuing beyond the end of the Second World War. My paternal grandfather found himself in France (not fighting - catering, he was 44 at the outbreak) according to my father because my grandfather’s employer expected him to volunteer. My father was quietly bitter about that (my grandfather died of ill health in his fifties) and he only went to church for weddings, christenings and funerals.

Myself, I experienced routine hypocrisy from supposedly religious teachers as early as I can remember. But, honestly, I never felt I was missing anything.


Looking forward to it. I share many of your “progressive” points of view. I found it very enjoyable, as well, to work with a missionary in Africa from England who was quite politically liberal, but theologically quite conservative and a strong believer. It was an interesting contrast to my own experience in the US, where we seem to conflate social conservatism (guns, big business and low taxes) with Christianity. He voiced some support for the British Lib Dem Tim Farron, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Farron

I also just listened this AM to your debate on Unbelievable https://www.premierchristianradio.com/Shows/Saturday/Unbelievable. I enjoyed your arguing in favor of objective morality, though I am still not entirely sure of what a definition of “objective” morality is. As you said, we can’t take a consensus on whether rape or racism are objective; so it appears much stronger to say the law comes from God.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #39

I see exactly what you are saying. The failures of religious leaders are appalling. I also never really felt that missingness regarding God or religion. If I did at times when I was younger, a sense of void without God is not what makes me a Christian. It is rather an encounter with something that changed me. I saw something that reordered everything.

Have you read @sygarte’s story or mine? Does any of it make sense to you?

(Randal Rauser) #40

An objective fact is any fact that obtains irrespective of the mental dispositions of finite creatures. For example, the statement that “Rape is evil” is objective if the fact that rape is evil obtains irrespective of whether any finite creature believes it.


Thanks. What interests me is the fact that “rape” is by definition the forcing of someone to have sexual relations against their will. Thus, it’s still intrinsically bound in the definition as to whether someone subjectively abhors it or not.

But there is another level where we have to objectify morality: Just wanting or not wanting something doesn’t make morality work. For example, when I was single and had no children, I was a bit puzzled at George Macdonald’s saying that “A man must learn to love his children, not because they are his, but because they are children, else his love will be scarcely a better thing at last than the party-spirit of the faithful politician.”

As a parent, I now realize that I can’t look out for what is truly right for my children only because they are mine; I have to be a faithful parent because it is right–in my case, I believe God wants me to do so.

The horror of rape, abuse, racism, etc is much clearer to me when one exposes it to God’s objectivity–though it does not in any way mitigate suffering to do so, I think. .

Regarding “Is the Atheist My Neighbor,” I enjoyed your discourse with Jeffery Lowder. Patt King, an atheist on Amazon, reviewed it thus: “Finding the wherewithal to make the emotional effort to meet at the good with people who hold different beliefs or viewpoints is the message I found worth remembering”

@AlanFox, it sounds like that is a standpoint you come from. @Philosurfer, you apparently discussed that approach with Michael Ruse, who did a “steelmanning” (debate from your opponent’s point of view) on “Unbelievable” with Randal Rauser. It has also been studied separately by psychologists as a way to break down prejudice and improve understanding between groups. Have either of you ever tried this approach in a debate?

(Alan Fox) #42

I have a soft spot for the Dalai Lama. My daughter passed on The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality and one remark struck me:

If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims

No, haven’t seen those stories. Where do I find them?