Rich Lenski takes down Michael Behe and his ID creationism: Part IV

Science

(Bill Cole) #23

As you get closer your position strengthens but to just get to the first step of evolution the spliceosome is in the way which makes the flagellum look like a chip shot.


#24

Who had post 22 in the “when will colewd bring up the spliceosome” pool?


(S. Joshua Swamidass) #25

And we have pointed you to the answer for this objection many times: Constructive Neutral Evolution. We even have a illustrative game: X-Men Constructive Neutral Evolution.


(Bill Cole) #26

I understand that you believe that constructive neutral evolution solves the problem. I am very interested in this mechanism being demonstrated to find complex sequences of an irreducibly complex system like the flagellum.


(Bill Cole) #27

And neither did I. I claimed they were examples used to demonstrate IR. I would think a comparable complexity would be required to meet the challenge.


(John Mercer) #28

Are you claiming that when we get down to what groups of proteins do, the mechanisms by which bacteriophage work are not comparably complex?


(Arthur Hunt) #29

FYI the spliceosome is not irreducibly complex. And it is not nearly “the first step in evolution”.


(Bill Cole) #30

Fair enough.


#31

a new binding site is very simple compare to a molecular nachines which requires many mutations on many genes.


(30-year veteran) #32

Put those goalposts back.


#33

The new binding site required many mutations. Challenge met.


#34

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#35

There is also nothing indicating he is talking about a single gene or protein or RNA.

Mutations are not parts.


#36

In “Edge of Evolution”, one of the main examples is multiple mutations in the same gene. In his latest book, he uses one gene from polar bears as an example.

Amino acids are parts of proteins.


#37

only if you consider 4 mutations as “many”.


#38

Behe considered 2 mutations “many” in the case of chloroquine resistance that wrote about in “Edge of Evolution”.


#39

That has nothing to do with IC systems. Does he ever refer to a single gene or single protein as an IC system?

Not in the sense that Behe is talkign about.

If you remove an individual amino acid does the protein cease to function?

If you can remove just one amino acid from the protein and have the protein continue to function then it is would not not IC even using your rather bizarre notion.


#40

He says the two are related:

If you change some of those amino acids you do lose the function, yes.


#41

It’s not IC then.


(S. Joshua Swamidass) #42

@Mung, which IC definition are you using? There are several.