Shroud of Turin redivivus - Not following where the evidence leads

[Giltil (Gilbert Thill)]

@AllenWitmerMiller

Wow. This tread is coming up on 1000 posts.

Not unexpected for a truly fascinating, out of this world artefact, as can be plainly seen with the video at 990.

[colewd (Bill Cole)]

@Faizal_Ali

If you need help, I suggest you read the Hugh Farey article which, hilariously, you just quoted in defense of de Caro and de Fantis’s paper

Hi Faizal
Hughs argument is against chain of custody prior to the 1300. He assumes the shroud existed prior to 1300 in his analysis.

I don’t see how this supports the medieval date hypothesis.

[Faizal_Ali]

@colewd

Hi Faizal
Hughs argument is against chain of custody prior to the 1300. He assumes the shroud existed prior to 1300 in his analysis.

No, that’s not even remotely what his position is.

Hypothesis further confirmed.

[colewd (Bill Cole)]

@Faizal_Ali

No, that’s not even remotely what his position is.

Hi Faizal
All his charts that show potential inconsistency due to chain of custody start in Jerusalem. Where is the discussion that supports the polymer breakdown observed supporting a chain of custody that starts in France?

[Giltil (Gilbert Thill)]

@Faizal_Ali

@Giltil

Why on earth the wonderful, articulate and documented presentation by Christopher Hovens should make Christians look like idiots?

The same way that someone wonderfully and articulately saying the earth is only 6000 years would.

I can see that you didn’t watch Hovens’ video at 990!
Now, what’s interesting here is that no matter how much evidence in favor of an old earth is presented to young earthers, they will hold to their view. The same dynamic seems at play with you here regarding the Shroud.

@Faizal_Ali

If I were Christian, I would be even more angry about this than I already am.

I would guess that you are not really angry against young earthers. Why? Because they don’t really threaten your world view, for their case is weak. Now why are you angry against those who support the authenticity of the shroud if it is not because they somehow represent a threat to your world view? And if they represent a threat, it is because their case is solid.

[Faizal_Ali]

@colewd

All his charts that show potential inconsistency due to chain of custody start in Jerusalem.

Wrong. He demonstrates that WAXS data is inconsistent with itself, and therefore completely meaningless. For instance:

(I)t is a pity that none of the other textiles were subject to the same treatment (as the Shroud was) , to find out if the assumptions and equations used for the Shroud are really meaningful. For instance, the average temperature and humidity of Masada are 22.6°C and 59.5% (from Masada, Golan Heights, IL Climate Zone, Monthly Averages, Historical Weather Data). This is hotter and damper than Memphis (22.1°C and 51% according to de Caro). If we take the portion of the Shroud graph relating to Memphis and extrapolate it as if it had remained there rather than moving north, we should be able to discover an appropriate minimum CBnor for a Masada textile (which from experiment was 0.7).

This is clearly nonsensical…

Yeah, no kidding.

Did you just overlook that part of the article? And all the other parts where he makes arguments other than “chain of custody” (whatever you think that is)?

[Faizal_Ali]

@Giltil

I can see that you didn’t watch Hovens’ video at 990!

Of course I didn’t. Why would I?

@Giltil

I would guess that you are not really angry against young earthers.

Your guess would be wrong.

[colewd (Bill Cole)]

@Faizal_Ali

Wrong. He demonstrates that WAXS data is inconsistent with itself, and therefore completely meaningless. For instance:

@Faizal_Ali

(I)t is a pity that none of the other textiles were subject to the same treatment (as the Shroud was) , to find out if the assumptions and equations used for the Shroud are really meaningful.

@Faizal_Ali

For instance, the average temperature and humidity of Masada are 22.6°C and 59.5% (from Masada, Golan Heights, IL Climate Zone, Monthly Averages, Historical Weather Data). This is hotter and damper than Memphis (22.1°C and 51% according to de Caro). If we take the portion of the Shroud graph relating to Memphis and extrapolate it as if it had remained there rather than moving north, we should be able to discover an appropriate minimum CBnor for a Masada textile (which from experiment was 0.7).

His question is about the assumptions about the shroud prior to France. In the medieval hypothesis these chains of custody do not exist.

Again the conditions in France and Italy were lower temperature than the other textiles so if this was the chain of custody you would expect less breakdown than the Middle East textiles of similar supposed origins.

Hugh does not think about the hypothesis he is trying to defend and that is of a medieval origin.

[Faizal_Ali]

How do you understand that paragraph and graph I just quoted? Summarize it in your own words.

[colewd (Bill Cole)]

@Faizal_Ali

How do you understand that paragraph and chart I just quoted? Summarize it in your own words.

He is discussing the chain of custodies and how they can affect the polymer breakdown based on temperature and humidity.

There is no discussion of the chain of custody in his medieval hypothesis which is only Ch-Tu.

[Faizal_Ali]

What a fascinating response.

[Giltil (Gilbert Thill)]

@Faizal_Ali

@Giltil

I can see that you didn’t watch Hovens’ video at 990!

Of course I didn’t. Why would I?

To get a good understanding of the arguments and evidence presented by your opponents and so doing, avoid strawmaning them.

[Faizal_Ali]

@Giltil

To get a good understanding of the arguments and evidence presented by your opponents and so doing, avoid strawmaning them.

Does he not believe a piece of cloth that has been C-14 dated as about 700 years old was used to wrap a dead body 2000 years ago? If so, there is obviously no reason to waste a moment listening to such idiocy. It doesn’t take much brain power to realize that is not possible.

[Dan_Eastwood]

Topic Close Timer set for Monday morning.

[Giltil (Gilbert Thill)]

@Faizal_Ali

Does he not believe a piece of cloth that has been C-14 dated as about 700 years old was used to wrap a dead body 2000 years ago? If so, there is obviously no reason to waste a moment listening to such idiocy. It doesn’t take much brain power to realize that is not possible.

I see that you idolize carbon-14 dating, which is a serious epistemological error.

[RonSewell (RonS)]

@Giltil

wonderful, articulate and documented presentation by Christopher Hovens

A bit underwhelming. Perhaps the “wonderful, incisive, penetrating, articulate, groundbreaking, documented, definitive presentation by professor Christopher Hovens.”

I suppose the adjectives for Dr. David A. Falk do not measure up.

Aside from all that, what evidence does Hovens have that has been missed?

[Gisteron]

@Dan_Eastwood

Topic Close Timer set for Monday morning.

Alright, bailing out then. Thanks for the heads up…

[Tim]

@Giltil

To get a good understanding of the arguments and evidence presented by your opponents and so doing, avoid strawmaning them.

What new evidence does he present – as opposed to the Rogers, Ruckers, Fanti etc claims that we have already considered and rejected?

I am far less interested in “arguments”, because, generally speaking they are rhetoric not evidence.

@Giltil

Why on earth the wonderful, articulate and documented presentation by Christopher Hovens should make Christians look like idiots?

This claim, even if true, does not demonstrate that the information he was presenting was even accurate, let alone compelling. It is perfectly possible to have a “wonderful, articulate and documented” and entirely false presentation. So my question is:

Why should I spend an hour and three-quarters of my time watching somebody who has no apparent expertise (let alone credibility) on the subject?