@gbrooks9 and @swamidass, when you say this, what do you mean?
Did I say that?
George thinks you did. Is he wrong?
Let’s ask George about his own language, and leave me to explaining it the way that makes sense to me.
1 Like
@John_Harshman, yeah, I think that makes sense. Frankly, I don’t find fine-tuning arguments that interesting so I’ve never really looked at the details.
3 Likes
Sure. Why don’t you explain it in a way that makes sense to you, and you can tell me if what George says makes sense to you too. I presume from this that you would not say that God designed the genomes for all life. And I think George would be surprised to know that.
1 Like
@swamidass, Agreed!
When I say
… I mean that there isn’t a genome, a mutation, a flaw, an innovation, a degradation of genetic information anywhere that God didn’t arrange, configure and deliver into reality.
For me, God-Guided-Evolution is not a fluke or a rarity (perhaps Behe does?)… I think it happens constantly, without interruption, gaps or letup.
I believe I worried about how Joshua handled the question… and that he should be quite unambiguous on the matter.
So, technically speaking, I think I worry that Joshua did NOT say what I say… and wish he had.
What do “arrange, configure and deliver” mean there? Is this occasionalism, or what?
1 Like
I use multiple words because I never know which word you are going to understand or accept.
This is the same reasoning behind the practice in the United Kingdom the courts using 2 different words to say the same thing:
to cease and desist was not to earn extra money on the extra letters… it was an attempt to congruently say ONE THING.
So… I would think my using multiple words would help you AVOID a meaning of “occasionalism”… the one thing I am trying to say is the opposite of “occasions” … it is CONSTANT AND UNIVERSAL!
God designs every step of our genetic history… always.
Now… to what part of the dance floor will you be taking me next?
ADDENDUM: As for the technical meaning of Occasionalism … I am in Behe’s camp … I see God as employing much of his actions through natural processes. Sometimes he does things through super-natural processes. I don’t know what you want to call this approach … but I don’t think it really changes the ramifications of my proposal very much in any particular direction.
The problem is that they’re all more or less synonymous and I don’t know what you mean by any of them. Nor do I know what “employing much of his actions through natural processes” means. Natural processes just happen; nobody has to “do” them. That’s why they’re called natural processes. If God hadn’t acted through natural processes to design our genomes and just sat back and let those natural processes operate all on their own, would our genomes be different?
It is true that the EM force between the earth and sun is minuscule, but that is because both bodies have an extremely balanced charge. If the sun were all protons + neutrons and the earth were all electrons, the EM attraction between the 2 bodies would be orders of magnitude greater than the gravitational attraction.
My source on this is “We Have No Idea,” an Audible book I was listening to just this afternoon on my commute home.
Thanks,
Chris
4 Likes
I take the theistic view to be that if God had just sat back, then most of what we call “natural” would not exist.
1 Like
Harumpf… you have a special kind of oppositionalism too, dontcha…
There are Christians who suggest that it WOULD be different. I think saying the sentence above (in the quote) is tantamount to saying:
John sits down to breakfast… and John ALLOWS his right hand to feed him breakfast all on its own.
I don’t think you would think that makes any sense, and the same for me when talking about God “letting natural processes operate all on their own”.
Those are GOD’s natural processes… aren’t they? Oops… I forgot… you are an Atheist… and you don’t have an answer for that question…
John feeds himself… he can use his left hand… and he can use his right hand.
God creates the universe… he can use natural processes or he can use super-natural processes.
The real miracle is that in the midst of all this creation … there IS Free Will.
1 Like
Could I ask you to explain what that means?
If you don’t want to tell me, just say so. All this runaround just confuses and annoys me but gets you nothing.
Obviously I want to tell you.
And obviously you don’t “get it” if it is my fingers pushing on the computer keys.
I have asked you to see @swamidass.
And now I INSIST.
Some theists see God as completely separate from nature, and using magic poofing. But others, such as @gbrooks9, see God as deeply engaged in nature and using nature to carry out “acts of god”. Scientists who are Christian tend to be of the “deeply engaged in nature” viewpoint, while YECs are more likely to be of the “magic poofing” viewpoint.
2 Likes
Well done! What an excellent exercise in translation!