The Argument Clinic

Don’t you mean that (A) is not that much different from common descent. Because ,as you suggested, common descent predicts nested and related taxa while common design predicts nested but unrelated taxa.

This observation is what I meant:

"analysis of the genomes of 46 sequenced isolates of Escherichia coli provides a statistically supported comparison of the topologies of the phylogenetic trees for regulatory regions, their regulated genes, and the species tree. The results of this comparison strikingly show that evolution of the regulatory regions of over half of the core genes (i.e., genes shared by all isolates) was incongruent with that of the species tree."[emphasis added]

Horizontal transfer beyond genes | PNAS

Common design better explains this data than common descent. Since this only applied to bacteria, I made a prediction that applied to the animal kingdom as well.

I agree that this is one of the two main differences, but it is not up to me to quantify the percentage of convergent sequences we need to find to prove common design. Instead, It is up to advocates of common descent to quantify the percentage needed to rule out their model in favor of common design.

In contrast, what I have to provide is a list of taxonomic groups that are supposed to be unrelated according to the common design model. This is another way to differentiate the two models. For instance, horses, Tapirs, and Rhino are considered to be all related, but my model predicts that they are not related. I provided a test for this prediction that ended up being confirmed. The prediction I am referring to is (A).

The same goes for prediction (B) and (D). If common descent predicts that non-functional ERV’s and psuedogenes from those groups, then my model would predict the opposite.

My overall point is that it mainly comes down to which taxonomical groups are convergent and not necessarily how many groups are convergent. The common design model predicts that almost all animal groups from the order and family levels are convergent because animals are much more complex and natural selection cannot explain sexual reproduction, cell differentiation, and consciousness.

Sure, let me give you a brief overview of how I arrived at my hypothesis.

According to Roger Penrose, the action of consciousness proceeds in a way that cannot be described by algorithmic processes. Consciousness can contemplate orders of magnitude of ideas and freely make intellectual and moral judgements. This involves distinguishing between true and false statements or what is morally right versus wrong.

The only thing in nature that does this is wave function collapse where you have a superposition of possibilities that collapses to one or the other. For example, the conscious observer must first specify or think of which wave-function he or she intends to measure and then, put in place a measuring device that will probe that aspect. Results from experiments like “quantum erasure with casually disconnected choice” seem to suggest this.

Diederik Aierts demonstrated a strong correlation between these two phenomenas. More importantly, we have empirical support showing that the brain uses quantum mechanical processes, such as quantum tunneling and superposition.

So if nature is fundamentally conscious, then we would expect it to operate in a non-random manner.
Confirmation of this prediction has come from observations of the cosmological constant, functional junk DNA and non-random mutations in the coding regions.

Eternal inflationary theory would show that this universal protoconsciousness possesses all the omni attributes as well.

So, I am incorporating the following from Penrose’s Objective-reduction (OR) theory in my model:

“In the Copenhagen interpretation, postcollapse states selected by conscious observation are chosen randomly, probabilistically (the Born rule, after physicist Max Born). However, in Penrose OR, the choices (and quality of subjective experience) are influenced by resonate with what Penrose called noncomputable Platonic values embedded in the fine scale structure of spacetime geometry”

In other words, whether a quantum system is displaying particle- or wave-like behavior depends on a non-computable conscious choice.

Now, here is MY HYPOTHESIS regarding their theory…

Universal common designer hypothesis

A recent prebiotic experiment demonstrated how self-replicating RNA molecules could “evolve into complex living systems by expanding their information and functions open-endedly.” More importantly, the similarity between computer logic gates and DNA structure and metabolism suggests that the characteristics of objects produced by human designers and biochemical systems are almost identical.

Given this additional data, this universal protoconsciousness that is described in the Orch-OR theory probably operated like humans when designing life on earth.

This means that we need not consider using an unfalsifiable theory that involves an omnipotent human because a non-computable being cannot violate his own nature.

In other words, the non-computable trait this designer possesses offsets the omnipotent trait the designer would also have to possess. Therefore, we would expect God to be consistent with his human nature without the flaws that humans naturally commit because of their inherent physical limitations.

This is what enables us to treat an omnipotent God the same way we would with other intelligent agents (Neanderthals, modern humans, aliens, etc.) when considering a valid cause to explain a biological phenomenon over a mindless force.

Thus, all candidates are considered natural but immaterial causes that we can test because consciousness is fundamental but not classical physics.

If this theory is true, we would expect all currently living organisms to have a common design that can be traced back to this universal common designer.

As I told @WalterKloover, the main differentiating factor between the two models comes down to which taxonomical groups are convergent rather than how many. The common design model predicts that almost all animal groups from the order and family levels are convergent because animals are much more complex and natural selection cannot explain sexual reproduction, cell differentiation, and consciousness.

Or maybe I don’t understand what you consider to be falsification of something. I was following after Karl Popper’s example of " all swans are white". Finding one black swan would falsify that claim. Finding one design flaw, sinister design, or a non-human animal displaying digital information would falsify my hypothesis. Do you differ in some way?

I gave a condensed version of my hypothesis to @WalterKloover to be clearer and more concise.

Fascinating. @Meerkat_SK5 seems entirely unaware of what a species tree is. As usual, he has no clue about what the stuff he quotes actually means.

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To check my understanding: the paper is comparing trees based on particular sequences (regulatory sequences acting on core genes) with trees based on the entire genome, and finding that in many cases they are not identical?

But this is not surprising because it can happen due to incomplete lineage sorting (and other processes).

And even if we assume it is a problem for common descent, how does it make common design more likely? What method used by a designer would result in this pattern?

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I can’t answer your questions, and neither can @Meerkat_SK5 .

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All swans are white is clear and simple; it only depends on the definition of swan and the definition of white, both of which are fairly easy to define.

It is much more difficult to define “design flaw” or your other markers in an objective, measurable way.

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BTW, I think prediction (C) is actually not something that we would expect from common descent unlike all the other predictions. Correct me if I’m wrong though.

But, to answer your question, the common mechanism of HRT would result in this phylogenetic pattern and make common design more likely. Now, let me show you why……

Universal common design hypothesis

According to experiments, only humans have been shown to construct viruses and design them to facilitate the evolutionary process.

https://www.science.org/content/article/poliovirus-baked-scratch
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrmicro2971

This means that we can infer that…

This universal conscious agent chose to re-use viruses and microtubules to develop animal created kinds to survive, reproduce, and develop in different environments.

Definitions

Universal consciousness: Universal Self-collapsing wavefunction

Origin of life and species model

Around 3.8 billion years ago, billions of viroids, likely containing all the required genes to make certain evolutionary trajectories, were created within the deep-sea hypothermal vents of the Earth through self-collapse of the wave-function. Through natural selection and self-collapse, these groups of viroids evolved into different species of unicellular organisms, which underwent extensive horizontal gene transfer (HGT), leading to the formation of multicellular plants and fungi .

Subsequently, horizontal regulatory transfer (HRT) and microtubules to develop cell differentiation, sexual reproduction, and consciousness into the first group of marine created kinds (fish, marine invertebrates, amphibians).

Then, reptiles, birds, and mammals were later developed from different times and global locations within the earth.

Not really…We would expect to NOT to find …….

  1. Organisms with features that hinder its [usability] for the purpose for which it was designed (I.e. design flaws)

  2. Animals with features that only impede on the population or another animal’s ability to survive, reproduce, and fit an environmental niche. (i.e. sinister designs)

BTW, What makes you say otherwise?

Yet we find that such “designs” evolve in real time, falsifying your hypothesis.

Why do I say “white swan” is easier to define than “features hindering usability for the purpose for which it was designed”? Because the purpose for which an organism was designed is not as easy to determine as whether an organism is white or black.

As an example, what is the purpose for which domesticated dogs were designed? And does the occasional tendency to bite a human hinder usability for that purpose?

Do you say otherwise?

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Alright, let me try to be more specific then and see if it helps clarify some things. We would expect not to find…….

  1. Organisms with features that hinder its usability for survival, reproduction, and adaptation (I.e. design flaws)

  2. Animals with features that ONLY impede on the population or another animal’s ability to survive, reproduce, and fit an environmental niche. (i.e. sinister designs)

Your hypothesis is still falsified.

BTW, in real science, when this happens we change the hypothesis. The pseudoscientist modifies the fake predictions–what you just did. The pseudoscientist is not really trying to test his/her hypothesis.

That’s why I’m pointing out that your fake predictions are not empirical. They are subjective. The hypothesis needs to be mechanistic and clearly stated, so that everyone agrees on its empirical predictions. There’s nothing of the sort going on here.

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First off, you never actually provided an example of how my hypothesis was falsified

Secondly, there is a difference between modifying the prediction to save it from falsification VS. making it more clearly stated so you can accurately falsify it. The latter was what I was trying to do in order for you to test it as you require.

Thirdly, I fail to see how what you just said is any different than what goes on with Darwin’s theory of evolution.

For instance, secular scientists have all acknowledged including Darwin that there are serious gaps in the fossil record, which have existed for more than 160 years at this point. Instead of giving up Darwin’s theory in favor Richard Owen’s theory that preceded it, they make ad-hoc hypothesis to save it from falsification (i.e. artifact hypothesis). Or in the case of Junk DNA, they redefine function to ONLY mean one thing now.

According to the Orch-OR theory, it most certainly is a mechanistic theory because Consciousness is the mechanism, which is the creation and movement of particles in a specific non-random manner.

I paraphrased their definition of consciousness just now, but this is what the Orch-OR theory essentially entails. My hypothesis of a universal common designer is merely an extension of their theory.

Again, If you just read the sources I gave you regarding their theory, you would not say that. I encourage you to do so, especially if you guys are going to beat me over the head about not reading every source I cite.

Nonetheless, I gave you everything else you wanted to me to do.

Seeking additional clarity, what does “usability for” add to the meaning of number 1? Usable by who? Do you mean to say that we would not expect to find organisms with features that reduce the organism’s probability of surviving, reproducing, and/or adapting? (If so, usability should be removed from the sentence).

In any event, as with previous versions these do not distinguish design from descent. Natural selection would weed out features that reduce probability of survival, etc. or that have no benefit to the organism but only impede on another.

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Because I knew you would cheat and change the prediction.

No, you were very clearly doing the former.

We weren’t talking about fossils at all.

No, most of those have been filled in.

Function only means function.

Consciousness is a phenomenon, not a mechanism.

I would.

I think the problem is that @Meerkat_SK5 is obstinately unaware of the fact that their ‘theory’ is merely a very flimsily-constructed Cargo Cult-style imitation of the steps and procedures that make up the scientific method. He is likewise obstinately unaware of the reasons behind these steps and procedures.

They want their ‘theory’ accepted. They see that in order to do so, their ‘theory’ must be backed up by “hypotheses”, “predictions”, “observations”, and “results”. But because they have no understanding of how the scientific method actually works, none of their “hypotheses”, “predictions”, “observations”, and “results” make any sense scientifically.

This is directly analogous to a literal Cargo Cult setting up an ‘airport’ to receive ‘cargo’, with a faux control tower, etc.

Unless @Meerkat_SK5 can be convinced to seek a more structured and thorough grounding in science, no substantive improvement is possible – as they will continue to have no basis for understanding why their attempts don’t measure up.

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Yeah, this seems like a better description. However, I think I should say that “features that only reduce the organism’s probability…” just to be more specific and consistent…

I am not following you here. The two predictions we are discussing now are meant to disconfirm my hypothesis not confirm it. So, I don’t see why this is relevant.

If you truly are a qualified scientist, put your money where your mouth is and just prove it Mercer.

Oh wait, you can’t because you were actually bluffing the whole time and knew it was not falsified.

It was just an examptle to illustrate why you are just creating a double standard in regards to your model versus mine.

Prove it

And your point

Again, NOT according to the Orch,OR theory, which you continue to stay ignorant of. Here is their clearly stated theory:

"*But rather than consciousness causing collapse, as in the Copenhagen interpretation, Sir Roger Penrose has taken the opposite approach, suggesting that collapse causes consciousness (or is consciousness), a process in fundamental spacetime geometry, the fine scale structure of the universe, each OR event a qualia moment of subjective experience.

Such events would be occurring ubiquitously in microscopic electrically charged environments throughout the universe, quickly reaching threshold and undergoing OR with random, meaningless, and disjointed protoconscious qualia. However, such primitive experiences could include pleasurable feelings or painful ones* "

Prove it. Show everyone how the Orch-OR theory is just a cargo cult.

I don’t need to. The resemblance will be blatantly obvious to everybody on this thread not named @Meerkat_SK5 .

Given that your half-baked, half-arsed, half-witted ‘theory’ IN NO WAY resembles ORCH-OR, a hypothesis (not a theory – and a controversial hypothesis at that) which NEITHER suggests NOR supports a “universal common designer”, there is no need for me to do so.

And before you whine that I am “ignorant” of the subject, like you falsely accused @Mercer, I would point out that I have already demonstrated that it is your own understanding that is DEFECTIVE:

You have done nothing on any of these threads that casts Design/Creationism in a positive light-- you have in fact done a great deal to confirm our worst stereotypes of advocates of that position – that of possessing a stubborn and willful ignorance on a par with the Flat Earth Society. I am aware that there are intelligent and thoughtful Creationists out there, I think they’d be horrified to be lumped in with the likes of you.

Further, you have done nothing to alter my earlier expressed opinion:

Addendum: it occurs to me that @Meerkat_SK5’s continued presence here is an implicit admission that they know that they’re not going to get a more positive reception elsewhere – in spite of the wholly negative reception here of their ‘theory’'s quality and improvability. Their choice is apparently between entirely negative reception and no reception at all. Which is rather sad really. :frowning:

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My emphasis:

I can’t see how @Meerkat_SK5 can possibly be unaware that their theory is not just Orch-OR theory.

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Given that they seem to also simultaneously think that their ‘theory’ is also identical to the ‘theories’ of Fazale Rana, Mike Gene and Richard Owen, I cease to be surprised at what they might think their ‘theory’ is equivalent to. At this stage, anything is possible – that their ‘theory’ is also believed equivalent to Time Cube, The Matrix and Brockian Ultra-Cricket would not seem out of the realm of possibility. :roll_eyes:

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Here is my publication record. Note that it includes three of the subjects your half-baked hypothesis entails: the cytoskeleton, learning/memory (LTP, which is an actual mechanism, unlike consciousness), and genetics:

Satisfied?

I appreciate you giving me your amazing credentials, but I am not quite sure why you felt the need to do this. I was expecting you to provide examples of sinister designs that you think disprove my hypothesis.

Anyhow, this is not your main objection anyways. So don’t bother.

Instead, I am going to show you why consciousness is a causal force but will try to be more concise and clear………

According to Roger Penrose, the action of consciousness proceeds in a way that cannot be described by algorithmic processes. Consciousness can contemplate orders of magnitude of ideas and freely make intellectual and moral judgements. This involves distinguishing between true and false statements or what is morally right versus wrong.

The only thing in nature that does this is wave function collapse where you have a superposition of possibilities that collapses to one or the other. For example, the conscious observer must first specify or think of which wave-function he or she intends to measure and then, put in place a measuring device that will probe that aspect. Results from experiments like “quantum erasure with casually disconnected choice” seem to suggest this.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1213201110

Diederik Aierts demonstrated how identical these two phenomnas are by applying the mathematical formalism of quantum theory to model cognitive phenomena.
[2208.03726] Human Perception as a Phenomenon of Quantization (arxiv.org)

More importantly, we have empirical support showing that the brain uses quantum mechanical processes, such as quantum tunneling and superposition, which would suggest it is more than just apparent:

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep07303

I don’t know how else I can convince you that consciousness is a mechanism, especially if you won’t read those articles. Your thoughts?