Leeches are used today to reduce swelling, most often afaik in plastic surgery for sites like noses and ears.
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What passages do you think are at the root of the debate?
How do these chapters fit into the origin debates?
Interesting fact about leeches. But they are no longer used to treat pneumonia – or so I’ve heard.
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Thanks for the references. I got through the paper he’s responding to: will have to watch the video later this week.
Genealogies with years attached. Exodus describing God stating He created in six days so they also should work for six days and rest on the seventh (tying their literal week back to Genesis 1). Paul’s references to Adam and all their theological and philosophical implications in those passages. Jesus’ reference to marriage tying Genesis 1 and 2 together. That’s what comes to mind off the top of my head.
Humanity started as two, not as a population.
Hello thoughtful,
You are living up to your screen name! Thanks for the posts in this thread.
That is the impression you get by reading Genesis 1 - 3 in isolation. But then you get to the fourth chapter, and the account of Cain and Abel. As a thoughtful reader, I ask myself this question:
Cain is afraid that wherever he goes on the earth, he will be killed. So it seems the whole earth is inhabited. How so, if Cain is the only surviving son of the only two humans?
Ciao,
Chris
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I think the difference in how we’re reading these texts is that I think context has something to say about how the ancients thought about and used geneologies, how they thought about and made use of Genesis 1, etc. And these three podcasts haven’t covered all there is to say about reading in context. It’s a start.
Regarding Jesus’s and Paul’s usage of their Hebrew Bible, there is good scholarship about how second temple Isrealites read their scriptures as well. I don’t think it’s necessary for Genesis to be video camera footage of events in order for Paul and for Jesus to build theology off of it.
Do you think Genesis 1 says that humanity started as two?
“God created human in his image,
in the image of God he created them,
male and female he created them.”
Last thought, I think the progression from Adam meaning Human in Genesis 1 to Adam transitioning to being used as a name at some point over the next chapters (exactly where may even be intentionally ambiguous) is a pretty cool literary tool to tie the chapters together. And the meaning of the words adam and eve (human and life) are possible clues that there is something representative or archetypal going on.
Wherever you land, I appreciate the conversation! Jesus followers that affirm the authority of the scriptures have been wrestling with this one for a while now.
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It could be that Adam and Eve had other unmentioned children who migrated to other parts of the earth, but kept in touch with their parents and siblings. If they got to know that Cain killed Abel, they might have tried to avenge Abel’s death.
Here’s episode 4! Listening now.
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Would they have used cell phones or e-mail to stay in touch across the planet? 
Best,
Chris
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They could have kept in touch by traveling occasionally to see AE and their siblings, Cain and Abel.
Yes, I had written that because we were only referring to Genesis 1 and 2. Obviously he’s not the only surviving son. When I read the early chapters of Genesis now (except Genesis 1 which is more straightforward) it is obvious to me they are very, very ancient documents. We would emphasize different things, write sentences in different ways, and give more context in certain areas. They do leave a lot to the imagination for sure.
Yes, but Genesis 2 makes that clearer. If we interpret “Adam” as “human” I’d like to know why we can’t interpret “Adamah” as Earth / man’s dwelling place (much as we use it today). 
I started looking at its use and didn’t take the time to substitute it in all the references, but at a quick glance it seemed to work. It seems to emphasize that the planet was made for man and that’s its natural name. If anyone has a resource on that I’d be interested in what scholars think!
Seems like sort of a straw man against the idea that they literally saw Adam and Eve as the first humans and beginning and foundation of creation norms.
About 190 years, ancestors on both sides of my family migrated to the United States. They never returned to visit, and to my knowledge they never even corresponded with those who remained in Germany and Belgium.
A few years ago, one of my uncles visited a Belgian village and recounted (in English) the family genealogy. The oldest villagers were agasp; they had heard long-ago stories of two brothers who ventured to the United States, but they had never gotten any account of what had happened. And now a great-great grandson stood before them!
You no doubt are grasping the point: if migrants at the start of the Industrial Age could not find the resources to stay in touch with the families they left, I seriously doubt that descendants of A&E spread far and wide would have been able to do so.
Today’s technologies have of course made the experience of migration much different.
Food for thought.
Regards,
Chris
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You make a good point, but it assumes these unmentioned kids traveled to quite distant places as your ancestors did which is not what I had in mind. Settlements which could be reached in a matter of days or weeks from the residence of AE is what I had in mind when I mentioned “other parts of the earth”. Sorry for not qualifying the phrase beforehand.
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So what was to stop Cain moving to a place that was months away, or even to a place that was weeks away but in an uninhabited area (as the population within the first few generations would have been insufficient to inhabit even the area within weeks of travel, with any density).
This would surely have put Cain beyond danger to his life. And as the population slowly increased, he could easily keep moving beyond its reach.
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If Cain knew of other uninhabited places or uncharted territory where he could reach in a day or a some months, then there would be no point in asking God to protect his life from his distant siblings, as he would have journeyed there without a second thought.
Let’s not forget the aim of my hypothesis is to explain how we can have just two humans in the world initially, yet have Cain mention the existence of other people on earth despite the Bible being silent about these other inhabitants up until that point. If these other inhabitants were siblings of Cain who set up camp at places quite distant (but not too distant for a return trip) from the residence of AE, and traveled back occasionally to see AE, then it explains how these other inhabitants would know that Cain killed Abel and might want to avenge him. If the other unknown inhabitants were completely cut off from AE, then they would never know that Cain killed Abel, allowing him to settle in or pass through their territory without fear, making his plea to God a pointless exercise.
That would have spoiled the plot.
Bible stories are dramatizations. Yes, some may be loosely based on history. But, even so, they are dramatizations. And often the drama is more important than the actual history.
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This assumes a certain way to read Gen 1 and 2 together (and IMO “clear” is not a word that should be used often). Also, it would be the only time the corporate use of adam refers to only two. It’s almost always a mass (humanity in general or a whole people group or nation), and very rarely an individual, but never a small collection.
The wordplay between adam and adamah works the other direction. We’d be better off calling Adam Earthling (or Clay or even Red if we go with etymology and alternate vowels).
Yes, this makes sense.
Here’s where I land: If Cain felt that anywhere he traveled within 2 weeks travel on foot or water would be filled with enemies who could overwhelm him, we’re talking about tens of thousands of people at a minimum, I would think.
That’s simply too many, too soon to match the single genetic couple hypothesis, in my opinion.
Best,
Chris
Or they might have killed him just because they didn’t know who he was…
The starting assumption is that these other inhabitants were descendants of AE, so they would have known Cain. If they somehow kept in touch in with their parents, they would have heard of Abel’s gruesome murder at the hands of Cain and tried to kill Cain in retaliation, hence, the plea for God to protect him.
Of course, if my assumption about a genetic relationship between AE and the other inhabitants is ignored, then it becomes hard to reconcile the mention of the presence of other people on earth by Cain if AE were the first humans.
However, I still don’t see the point in Cain asking God to protect him all the way, because its unlikely that every camp of strangers he would have met would try to take his life. More so, if these strangers had no connection to AE, how would they have known that God marked Cain? If these other inhabitants or strangers once lived with AE, affording the opportunity to know God, then it makes sense that they would recognize Cain was under God’s protection.