The Burning Bush Reversed: the Unbiblical Miracles of Young Earth Creationism

Divine intervention might preserve a material substance from decay and hence from ageing, but it would be contrary to its essence that it should enter a state of decay and decomposition without having undergone, in however short a time, the process of ageing itself.

This idea seems arbitrary to me. How short a time is long enough to respect its essence. An hour? A millisecond? Why?

Personally I take for granted that the God who created the universe ex nihilo can do anything he likes with it. My disagreement with young Earth creationists is about what God would do. And I think the Bible gives us some parameters for that. Although he sometimes withholds truth from those who have rejected what they know, he does not generally deceive people because his nature is truthful. So the idea of miracles which leave behind no effect except the confusing appearance of age is untenable to me.

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All I’m saying is that you responded without apparent consciousness of the context. Just look at what happened in the exchange before you made your contribution. That post wasn’t created ex nihilo; it had a history.

And we’ve discussed this before in the context of GAE. If Adam and Eve are created, what appearance of age must they necessarily show, and what, if present, would be purely deceptive? Whether the creation scenario is correct or even the best interpretation of Genesis is not relevant to the question.

You must be operating on a very interesting definition of “observation.”

I commented here to address one issue. @nathanlong is now Gish galloping all over the place. He is apparently aware of all the typical anti-YEC rhetoric with zero knowledge of evidence from our side, and I have no particular desire to educate him, especially if he’s just going to change the subject from a particular issue to literally everything that is wrong with YEC, which is what this thread apparently is.

I had to read up on the “Gish gallop” to understand what you mean. It sounds like you’re saying that I’m throwing out a large number of fallacious arguments in an attempt to overwhelm any opposition.

I hope my arguments have not been fallacious. I do acknowledge that my posts have been all over the place. That’s partly because I lack depth of knowledge, but also because I’m trying to say that, from my layman’s point of view, there are many lines of evidence which point to the same conclusion, and that the strength of an “old universe” viewpoint comes from the consilience of all this evidence.

However, looking back, my first post concentrated on the heat problem posed by the idea of accelerated nuclear decay. Your first comment turned the subject to cosmology. I responded briefly and then returned to the subject of radiometric dating and the implausibility of accelerated decay. Only later did I get carried away on other topics. I suggest we return to my original topic.

I intended my later mentions of the Lake Suigetsu Varves, the St. Severin meteorite, and the dating of the Hawaiian Islands to show that old radiometric dates are well-established and follow a consistent pattern which YEC cannot explain. Baumgardner seemed to think YEC requires accelerated decay and miraculous heat removal, and my point was that appealing to miracles only moves the problem from the scientific realm to the theological realm. It sounds like you agree that this is a bad move.

We are not in a live debate here and I have no desire to steamroll any good counterarguments. If you think that YEC has an explanation for the observed patterns of radiometric ages or an answer to the heat problem that accelerated decay would create, I truly would like to hear your response. You can set aside anything I’ve said which is irrelevant to that.

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What “evidence from your side” exists, Ben? Why would evidence have a side, anyway?

How about educating us, using actual evidence and zero hearsay, about anything at all that is right about YECism?

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Maybe something to do with “observatories”.

The common thread is that YEC has to concoct miracles to patch up the problems with their miracles. These are problems that do not exist except as consequences of YEC absurdities. For instance, there is no distant starlight problem. Light taking billions of years to cross space is not a problem. There is no heat problem, because there never was accelerated tectonic movement, never was accelerated nuclear decay, nor rapid limestone formation. These only arise as problems when YEC insists on regarding nonsense as somehow constituting evidence.

So the evidence is conclusive against YEC, and faced with that they cannot get their alibis straight. There are additional self contradictions with accelerated nuclear decay than just the heat problem. There is a current discussion going on at biologos on this if anyone is interested.

YEC’s Heat Problem is Not Cooling Off

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I’m enjoying this discussion. Let’s remember that the title here is “Peaceful Science” and keep it peaceful. :slight_smile:

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I come from a Young Earth Creationist background. I even used to represent YECism in campus debates long ago as a young academic. (Embarrassing? Yes. But I didn’t know any better.) I did a lot of investigation of the alleged evidence for a young earth that I had been passing along for years (having assumed that the stuff which Morris, Whitcomb, and Gish were claiming was backed by solid evidence.) I eventually concluded that there is ZERO compelling evidence for a young earth.

It has been many years since I have heard ANY claims by Young Earth Creationists which were not “old hat” to me. @BenKissling, if you have something NEW in the way of compelling evidence, I would be most interested in hearing it. But my experience has been that evidence for a young earth is a lot like the evidence that the 2020 presidential election was stolen. When pressed to hand it over, there is always an excuse for not providing it----or the “evidence” is simply more handwaving and rhetoric.

So, please. Surprise me. What compelling evidence do you have for a young earth? And PLEASE don’t simply rehash the tired old stuff which has been thoroughly debunked a thousand times. Impress us with an overwhelming consilience of evidence. Young Earth Creationism a la Morris, Whitcomb, Gish, Hovind, Ham, Snelling, Walker, et al has been around for many decades. There should have been plenty of time to compile an impressive collection of overwhelming evidence.

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@nathanlong (like many of us) has a lot of knowledge of the ‘evidence’ from your side. Unlike you, he (and we) know exactly what is wrong with that ‘evidence’.

Feel free to provide some evidence from your side that you think is not merely ‘evidence’. Preferably without Gish galloping. You may find this thread a useful guide as to what not to do.

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Roy has reminded us of a timeless classic in that thread:

Until @BenKissling posts the compelling evidence for a young earth, newcomers to PS can pass the time with this compendium of 101 knee-slappin’-good list of mind-numbing classics. (I say that even while feeling embarrassment from the fact that a lifetime ago I simply assumed that some of these claims were true even though I had never bothered to investigate the evidence.)

Seriously speaking, many of these 101 howlers are actually a good way to dive into the relevant science. I learned so much while searching for the underlying evidence which allegedly supported popular Young Earth Creationist claims. Even today I sometimes take a break and enjoy researching young earth misrepresentations of science. Starting from the pseudoscience of some topic can also be a great way to revive knowledge I had nearly forgotten from undergrad science.

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For a fun look at the face-palm inducing “logic” of industrial strength YECism, here’s a random selection from “101 Reasons”:

  1. The Arches National Park (USA) has over 2,000 rock arches. If 43 have collapsed since 1970 and the linked article was written in 2015, that’s 45 years, giving a rate of collapse of ~1 per year, which means that all would be gone in ~2,000 years. This is thoroughly consistent with the biblical timeframe but not the evolutionary one of millions of years (5 million?). Historical records of the ‘12 Apostles’ in southern Australia should allow a similar ‘clock’ to be calculated, albeit coarser than this USA park one. See A dangerous view.

I kid you not. (And keep in mind that this comes from the same movement which decries “Unformitarianism” and says “We can’t apply present day processes and their rates to processes of the past.”

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So now the Flood took place in the time of Jesus?

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There was a miracle. Problem solved.

I think it proves that the Flood will take place 2000 years from now.

In case @BenKissling missed it, I want to repeat my reply to his last post. I am looking forward to his response:

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Beside the heat problem, the YEC concept of accelerated nuclear decay does not seem to fit coherently into their story. I have struggled to explain this, so here’s another attempt. Corrections are welcome.

It seems to me that biblical miracles take a couple of forms. Sometimes they are direct, like turning water into wine or raising Jesus. In direct miracles, either there is no scientifically describable process involved or it’s irrelevant; God desired an outcome and caused it somehow. The fact that it’s inexplicable is intentional; it provokes amazement. Other times, biblical miracles are indirect, like sending a wind to carry locusts to destroy crops. One could observe how the wind moved the locusts and the locusts ate. But again, how God caused the wind is unknown and irrelevant; He had a reason for wanting it.

Accelerated decay seems to be neither. A direct miracle would be God directly changing young-looking rocks to look old. It’s hard to imagine any point in that but deception, so that’s out. An indirect miracle would be God miraculously accelerating decay so that (eg) its heat and radiation would accomplish something else, like the wind blowing the locusts. But accelerated decay would be way too powerful for any conceivable purpose, which is why YECs imagine miraculous heat removal; it would be like sending a hurricane to divert a falling snowflake but then ensuring it does nothing else. If almost all the heat and radiation were miraculously removed, it’s basically a direct miracle again, since the main effect is to make rocks look old.

Perhaps YECs think of accelerated decay more like a side effect of God turning up the “chaos” dial as part of the flood (although with God, all side effects would be foreseen). But that sounds like God making mistakes - “whoops, I’d better remove this heat so I don’t vaporize the planet, and it’s too bad that these rocks will look confusingly old.” God is no bumbler.

Also, this makes no sense because of how decay works; it’s not one process within a rock but many parallel chains of processes. Here I’m getting out of my depth, but maybe others can check me. The nuclear decay of one atom often involves a chain of decays from isotope A to B, B to C, and so on. In the same rock unit, other isotopes may be decaying from J to K, K to L, and so on. And most atoms are not decaying at all, decay being a “random” (unpredictable for humans, not for God) process.

Furthermore, the decays in a chain vary. Looking at the table of nuclides, it appears to me that some are unstable because they have too many neutrons for their protons and others because they have too few. This, I gather, has something to do with the delicate balance of different forces in the nucleus which depend on its size and composition. Different imbalances lead to different types of decay, like little towers of blocks toppling left or right. You can’t speed them all up by tipping the board to the left; that would speed up some and slow down others. So there couldn’t be some single change in the strength of one force which would cause accelerated decay.

So if you wanted to accelerate all decay in a rock, you’d have to micromanage each atom, now tilting the nuclear forces this way to speed up the A to B decay, now tilting them the other way to speed up the B to C decay, and so on. The number of individual, careful changes you’d need to make just for one rock would be astronomical. Accelerating nuclear decay by changing physical constants would be less like tilting a table and more like playing a symphony. You’d have to manage each atom’s decay series carefully for the various decays happening by different mechanisms and at different rates to end up with the same amount of apparently elapsed time. Multiply that by many rocks worldwide and it’s mind boggling.

Even then, it wouldn’t explain increasing apparent ages as you go down the geological strata, or why we’d see large apparent ages in stalactites and coral that formed (by YEC reckoning) after the flood, or in meteorites and Mars rocks that would seem to have no connection to it.

So to summarize, accelerated nuclear decay doesn’t make sense as a miraculous end in itself, or as a miraculous cause for some other effect, or as a side effect of some other miraculous activity. It doesn’t seem to make sense at all, even in a YEC framework.

If you find a pocket watch, you assume it had a designer. If you find a meteorite where multiple decay series, each measured independently by multiple labs, show the same (within error bars) large apparent age, and if you find many such examples of consistently dated rocks and meteorites, it’s not plausible that it’s a coincidence or side effect. Either the rocks are truly old, or the miracles involved in making them look that way were extremely elaborate - more befitting Loki than Yahweh. The challenge for YEC is to suggest a third option that explains the facts.

Did I get the science right? I’d love feedback from anyone who has actually studied nuclear decay formally.

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All great questions. I’m just not an expert on nuclear decay.

(However, as THE ENTROPIC PROFESSOR™, I’m experiencing accelerated decay on a daily based. And I can assure you that there is nothing miraculous about it.)

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Your observation about how the burning bush reveals both the immanent power of God and the transcendent power of God simultaneously was quite impressive thank you.

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