The immortal soul and the conflict hypothesis

Yeh, that was my tentative understanding as well, hence my statement above:

Can we assume that God bestows or allows souls to certain creatures? I will assume so.

I agree that the OP seems to be making an implicit assumption to the contrary, which is why I’m trying to put out alternative explicit assumptions to see where the point of conflict is.

Addendum:

It further occurred to me that the assumption that souls are bestowed “at conception” would mean that many souls are attached to zygotes that never develop further as they don’t attach to the uterus. Whilst this isn’t a strong argument in favor of souls for non-human creatures, it does make the argument against them just that little bit more tenuous.

As I said, make explicit assumptions, and see where that leads us. :slight_smile:

Further addendum:

I was talking about “serious discussion”. I’m quite happy to have interesting discussions on such nebulous topics, but don’t expect to take them seriously. :slight_smile:

The problem I have with some philosophical discussion of consciousness is that it can be so woolly that it is difficult to tell what is being discussed. This is particularly true when panpsychism is on the table, as this broadens the definition of consciousness sufficiently far that I find it difficult to view as intelligible. It’s rather like trying to have a discussion/debate over whether ducks are nice birds, only to find that the definition of ‘duck’ has been widened to include seagulls, buzzards and maybe turtles. We have a hard enough time trying to get our mind around what consciousness means for people, trying to work out what it might mean for rocks is just a mess.

Yes, and that lies reasonably close to what my problem is with quite a bit of philosophy. It elevates the subjective over the intersubjective. You can try to tell me what it feels like to you to have these experiences that you associate with what you think of as your soul. But you therefore cannot tell me what it is like to live without a soul, so you cannot give me any information that is relevant to the question of what does a soul actually do? Likewise, it is likely that people of other religious traditions have numinous experiences that they interpret through the framework of their traditions, possibly in manner that is unrecognisable to the Christian tradition.

None of this argues that a soul may not be important, just that discussion of it may be too deeply rooted in subjective experience to be productive.

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I seem to have evoked a more interesting discussion than the OP deserves.

I did not mean to claim that historically there is a general conflict between science and religion. For what it is worth, religion seems to me, at worst, little different in this regard from secular ideologies, such as Stalinism or free market capitalism, which accept science when it suits them and otherwise not, and different strands of religion very greatly in this regard.

There are also, as Puck Mendelssohn points out, numerous other problems with the idea of an immortal soul, which I did not really mean to raise.

But very specifically, I would ask you, Josh, and those who believe like you, whether you think that Australopithecus had a soul. Or our last common ancestor with a monkey? with a dog? With a dogfish? It still seems to me that while separate creationists can coherently maintain that only humans have a soul, those who believe in the immortal soul while accepting our evolutionary past have a real problem in saying exactly when it came into existence. After all, it’s not like consciousness, which can emerge bit by bit.

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I suppose that’s so. I tend to assume that other people mean what I mean by it, which may or may not be so. All I mean by a “soul” is that there is some non-physical reality which operates on the body and accounts for consciousness – a “ghost in the machine.” The claim that souls exist in this sense assumes that physical things and forces somehow could not generate the internal experience of being a living, acting, choosing thing, and that therefore there has got to be something which is a spirit which steps into bodies and causes them to be “selves” as we experience them. Whether such a thing is immortal, whether it survives the death of the body, whether there are other spirits in whatever spirit-plane may exist, how souls get into bodies, et cetera, are additional questions which might be of great interest, and methods for the investigation of which might be opened, if we could establish that such a thing exists at all.

I’ve had a hard time understanding why this, rather than evolution, is not the principal focus of people who feel they want to attack what they like to call “materialism.” Who cares if things evolved? It seems to me that this is the meat and potatoes. This is what people seem to WANT – the prospect of a life beyond, a heavenly rest or reward, that sort of thing – and this is what experience now suggests is entirely missing. As I have said before, I cannot imagine being convinced not to be a Christian by evolution. But I could easily imagine being convinced not to be a Christian by the story of Phineas Gage, or the many examples in the books of Oliver Sacks or V.S. Ramachandran. These seem to speak strongly of what we experience as a “soul” being entirely the product of the body. When someone claims that spirits, of whatever kind, exist, my first thought is that it is hard to understand, then, why no effort is put into demonstrating the existence of those spirits which, unlike distant gods, are supposedly in action on every city street, every day of the year and whose doings can be witnessed and catalogued. If I had to name one principal reason why I am an atheist, that’s probably what I’d name: the complete yawning absence of any evidence that spirits of ANY kind, including the ordinary pedestrian sort, exist at all.

Just a note, because this remark suggests that, despite my verbosity (or perhaps because of it) I have made myself poorly understood. If the world is divided into “question people” and “answer people,” I place myself firmly in the former camp. I’d rather have ten good questions than one bad answer. And I believe that there are very few questions in this life that are resolvable by pure reason; most require the weighing of evidence, on matters of fact, and the weighing of other considerations like moral values, on matters of more than fact alone. The consequence is that I seldom have any expectation of “definitive” answers to anything. All knowledge is tentative, though some of it is easier to budge than other parts.

So I would hate to be thought of as someone who, confronted with compelling evidence of the grand poetic truth of a complex theistic schema, folds his arms and says, “nuh-uh! I need DEFINITIVE PROOF!” I find instead that where I am is in the position of someone who has got his fact-weighing scales at the ready and is waiting for SOMETHING to put in them.

I’m aware that people will say that there is “evidence” of various theological and theistic propositions but I find that when people say this they do not have the same conception of the competence of evidence that I do. No amount of historical evidence would convince me that, say, Napoleon could throw a one-pound stone ten miles with a flick of his wrist. No number of witnesses of known credibility would move me on the point. And when I consider how much more extraordinary are the claims of the various religions, I am gobstopped by the notion that one ought to, or even could choose to, believe such things on the basis of ancient writings and traditions or subjective feeling.

My brother, a Mormon, once said to me in exasperation: “if you look at it that way, you’re never going to find ANYTHING!” But it seems to me that if I am not trying to find “the one true religion” as Joseph Smith says he was, but am instead trying to find out what is so and what is not so in regard to spirits, gods, et cetera, then the object is not to find “something” but is to find what can be found through the application of methods that are sound and reliable. And while all manner of non-empirical methods are good for a person who is more or less committed to a scheme of belief about the paranormal and who wants to fill out the details of that scheme, none of those methods are worth a damn for someone in my position. I don’t need something “definitive.” But I need the kind of reliable dependence upon evidence which characterizes empiricism.

It will then be said, sometimes, “aha, but our god is not scrutable in that way.” All I can say, then, is that such gods can be of no interest to me. How can I gauge the truth of a proposition if the proposition comes to me with the proviso that its truth may not be judged by sound methods, but may be judged only by unsound methods? It cannot be done. And, while the person who says such things may be innocent of the crime himself, being nothing but someone else’s dupe, statements of that character tend to originate from charlatans, not from people genuinely interested in the truth

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Why not? Since the idea is nebulously defined, why can’t it be nebulously begun? And of course another solution has already been advanced several times: that souls are inserted, not inherited. The big question is what the difference would be between an ensouled hominid and an unsouled one.

Well, My X wife says I have no soul… So I don’t know what my kids are going to do! LoL.
Here is a thought. You are not you. Your DNA has never been dead. You never started, your DNA is just an active part of your mother and father that was transitioned joining two souls or two lives into one both existing. So literally if there is an adam and eve, that very exact life of theirs has been copied always alive. so maybe the soul is stretchy or multiplies with the DNA like Yeast OR maybe its a new thing unlike our continual life since Adam and Eve.
That is where Anti-Abortion people get stuck at. when “life” begins.

Some geneticist could help me in this. with the sperm and the egg. Is there two copy machines with a unzipping of DNA to then hand one half over so they can zip opposite half together. Is that double zipping that creates the actual miracle of New Birth. In that moment is there an instruction to switch all the lights and start the copy factor. And then, on the factory goes to produce the city, the new two halves human.

Sperm seems to have a life of its own. Maybe the soul starts in the sperm or has a spark there, it moves around more than the egg. Its definitely grand design. Pinpointing at what a soul begins is impossible to figure out. Specially when part of one persons body leaves to become part of someone elses.

If you think the soul is inserted, then my problem is an acute one for you; at what point in our evolution did God start inserting souls, thus making a discrete break in the otherwise continuous evolution of our nature?

And a nebulous concept of a soul is not the same as the concept of a nebulous soul. I am referring, clearly I hope, to an immortal personal soul, preserving an individual’s identity and awareness after death, as required by many religions. And as I see it, either an organism has one, or it doesn’t, unless you can show me what different levels of ensoulment might look like, analogous to different levels of consciousness.

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That depends on whether the soul has a major effect on one’s nature, doesn’t it?

As far as I know, this is the first time you have articulated the concept. This makes a soul seem like nothing more than a passive recording device whose presence or absence would make no difference to behavior or internal state. So it should be easy to imagine it as being inserted at any arbitrary point in history, into any number of individuals in a population at any times in their lives. It should also be easy to imagine it being inserted in different models of increasing sophistication.

One could imagine soul-like recorders of different durations, less than eternal. One could imagine recorders that preserved only some characteristics: personalities rather than complete memories, or vice versa. And so on. The ancient Egyptians supposed five different sorts of souls, and even Aristotle proposed three. I don’t think your imagination is exerting much effort here.

Good questions can do that! :slight_smile:

Off-topic, but I recommend “To Your Scattered Bodies Go” by Phillip Jose Farmer or “Kiln People” by David Brin. Both are science fiction takes on the origin of the soul.

We could apply something like GAE, where the soul is applied after the creation/evolution. Perhaps applied retroactively as well. In some religions the soul exists before the body. I don’t see any one-size-fits-all answers.

Yes, I concur. The Conflict Thesis tells us a great deal more about the scholars who constructed it than about the history it purports to narrate. I do not personally know any historians of science or religion who would disagree with what I just wrote, though I could name 1 scholar I do not know who would dispute this: ‪Yves Gingras‬ - ‪Google Scholar‬.

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Well argued. It might help if someone here to whom the concept of a soul is important would explain what they mean by it. But I’m beginning to think that I’m really adding little to the problem the believer has, in any case, in explaining life after death, and to the problem we all have in relating the world of personal experience to the world of objective observables.

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It seems to me the real conflict is not ultimately about findings of fact (how old is the Earth?), but about the differences in methods of gathering knowledge, and whether revelation or “other ways of knowing” are a reliable guide to truthes about physical reality. There are some religious claims that are empirically testable (an example would be “ask and ye shall recieve” ← that claim has been empirically proven false, you do not, in fact, receive anything). Yes I know what will happen next, we’ll get fed an ad-hoc hypothesis that renders the statement meaningless, since now the claim that you can ask and will then receive is observationally indistinguishable from the statement being, in fact, false. Which is what we mean by something being false in basically all other situations in our lives, but I digress.

Another aspect of the question has to do with what exactly you mean by the terms “religion” and “science”. Depending on definitions there might or might not be any conflict.

Christianity, and one of it’s sub-sets called young Earth creationism, are just two of many forms of religion. The concept of the immortal and immaterial soul seems be tied to many religions(and plays a large part in Christianity), though I guess you could argue it is not a necessary aspect of religion. Thus if there was an implied conflict concerning a Christian conception of the immortal soul vs science, that would not prove that religion(broadly construed) is intrinsically in conflict with science. It would only show that that specific Christian conception is in conflict.

And depending on what exactly the immortal soul is supposed to be and what effects it is supposed to have on the world(apparently many think it’s none at all), it might or might not entail a conflict with empirical science. If proponents of the immortal soul are fine with the idea that there could in principle be soulless humans that are conscious, think, act, and behave exactly like everyone else, they just don’t have any sort of mind that goes on and “survives” after their body’s physical death, then the concept is fundamentally untestable. Untestable things aren’t in conflict with science, they’re just unscientific beliefs. Not the same as a scientifically false belief.
If the soul truly has no testable real-world effects, Christians could just decide that at some arbitrary point in the history of human evolution, God decided to start giving whatever proto-human hominoid an immortal soul, and we would have no way to test that idea. It would just be an assertion to be believed on faith. No scientific evidence in support of it, but not possible to contradict either.

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At the risk of being, as usual, overly verbose, I just have an observation here. It’s more or less in the domain of the subjective, and so you may take it for whatever you think it is worth, but it has been an awakening for me.

As a youth I was immensely prone to sloppy thinking. I wasn’t very interested in the sciences, in part because I had a kind of visceral sense that the sciences were this horribly constrained, excessively linear way of thinking about things. I didn’t want to be constrained. I wanted to think grand thoughts, derive great themes from the principles of existence, freedom and wisdom; not figure out why some enzyme worked the way it did. I fancied myself a poet and philosopher, and what’s more, I thought the world of the poet and philosopher were vastly richer and more worthwhile than the world of the scientist, whom I perceived as (mostly) a kind of technician. So for me it was less ornithology and more “hail to thee, blithe spirit! Bird thou never wert!”

In retrospect, I think I was a lazy thinker. I failed to appreciate that vast and profound insights are usually an emergent property of the multitude of ordinary observations we are capable of making. The law, though very different from science, began to teach me this: a person who comes to some legal topic from first principles rarely develops a grand insight. Who does develop a grand insight? The equivalent of what I thought of as a mere technician. It turned out that depth was not possible without width to support it: that a comprehensive familiarity with a great body of complexity and detail was what it took to make a “eureka” moment possible.

It may indeed be that the questions which religion sometimes tries to tackle are “big” and “really hard.” But I am not sure the tools for big and hard questions are actually all that different from the tools for small soft ones. And I think that sometimes questions seem bigger or harder than they are because we have a hard time characterizing what we’re asking. It’s not that answers are hard to derive so much as that we tend to ask things that are too incoherent to give rise to good answers. When “42” would suffice to answer one’s question as well as it answered the question asked of the computer in Hitchhiker’s Guide, it suggests that one is asking poorly.

I am inclined to think that we ask some poor questions because it is a kind of offshoot of our immensely cognitive way of examining the world. You start off with a brain that’s decent at finding food and shelter, and you wind up with one that gets so much better at those things that it starts developing rules, and abstractions, and the next thing you know it is asking “why are we here?” But sometimes it ought to be asked back: “why should there be an answer to a question like that?”

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Great contributions @tim.

One way to understand this is what it would be like to talk to someone from 2,000 years ago, just transported to our time, about how something complex like a computer works. Think about something even as simple as an on/off switch.

Any useful description, at least at first, we give about how the on-off switch works is going to be imprecise and difficult to for them to understand. It’s gonna sound like magic explained by a bunch of technobabble. A good mechanistic explanation, to them, will sound random syllables without any semantic weight.

They are going to think this is all a bunch of nonsense. Electricity is going to seem poorly defined and hard to grasp…except for the brute fact that the switch works as we say. That might be their only clue that electricity is pretty well defined, well enough that we can engineer quite a bit.

At some point, long before they actually understand what we are talking about, they’ll have to take a leap of faith to trust there is something coherent in what we are saying. That isn’t all just technobabble. That trust will be necessary for them to even start learning the basics, which will ultimately demystify everything.

I think the situation on the soul (and many other topics in theology) is similar. We all (including the theologians) are like that person from 2,000 years ago transported to now. There might be ways to conclude that the soul exists, in some way, and to rule out some conceptions of it. There might be ways to imagine what the soul could possibly be. But our real knowledge of it is very limited. That isn’t reason to reject its existence, but it is a good argument against dogmatism.

To state the obvious; we can turn lights on and off. We can couple a rheostat to an incandescent lightbulb and control its glow. We can, in short, show that something is happening and that this something follows coherent laws.

I see no analogue to this in theology

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Yeah, I just don’t see how the analogy works at all. We may be like the person from 2,000 years ago, but there’s no demonstrated working principle and nobody to explain it, in any way which either seems or does not seem incoherent.

It’s theoretically possible, for sure, that when one hears an incoherent, senseless non-explanation of something (offered, in this case, NOT by someone with any more actual knowledge than we ourselves have), this thing one is hearing could simply be beyond our understanding and actually brilliantly true and useful. But I cannot think of an example – surely not one coming from theology – where this has ever turned out to actually be true. And when the best efforts at explanation and demonstration are of that character, that IS a reason to reject the existence of the underlying notion. All knowledge being tentative, of course, one may revise that conclusion when the incoherent explainer gets off the sauce, starts making sense, and proceeds to demonstrate the working of the principle in question.

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I don’t think you have to go back 2000 years for this. Many(most?) people today don’t really understand computers, and from what I’ve been hearing, it’s getting worse. I read an article a while back that the general understanding of file systems is decreasing over time (probably because smart phones try to make this transparent to the user). I know my mother, who has been using a computer for the last 20 years, still tends to think of files sitting in the app, rather than in the file system on the hard drive.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

– Clarke’s Third Law.

Computer technology has gotten sufficiently advanced that most people do not understand how to interact with them on their most basic levels. Their interaction is circumscribed by UIs that have gotten increasingly more restrictive over time. To the extent that their interactions might be considered closer to magical rituals and spells than to anything a computer user was doing 30-40 years ago.

Likewise, I suspect that most people have a fairly superficial understanding of electricity.

But that does not mean that you cannot demonstrate to somebody (either today or 2000 years ago) that electricity is a real thing. All you need is a flashlight.

This means that, unlike the soul, electricity has undisputed existence. Somebody (even lacking the knowledgebase of modern science) can then proceed to tease out its properties from that solid fact. This is why I said of the soul, above:

If its existence was more firmly established, we would have a better chance of more clearly discerning its properties.

I would further point out that, in the 2000 years that Christianity has existed, we do not seem to have any more rigorous understanding of the soul’s properties.

For these reasons, I cannot consider your analogy to be apt.

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In my understanding of the soul, it isn’t that different than consciousness.

It’s also worth remembering that the many (most?) traditional understandings of the soul hold that animals have souls too. Humans are the only ones with human souls, but not the only ones with souls.

To which I will add: it might help if someone would explain what they mean by consciousness.

People have tried to explain human thought. So they have come up with the mind, the soul, consciousness. But, in their attempts to explain, they have idealized the mind to something that it could not be. And it seems to be that idealized mind that gives rise to the idea of a soul.

These days, many have come to recognize that there is something wrong with dualism (the concept of a soul). But they are still trying to explain their idealization. So now they are looking at panpsychism, which is an even worse explanation than dualism.

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Exactly. THat’s part of why I’m not too troubled by how to define the soul.

Do I have an immortal soul? If I have an immortal consciousness, I have an immortal soul. Certainly I don’t if there is no God. But if there is a God, and he chooses to bring me back when I die, then I have an immortal consciousness. It isn’t hard to imagine how God could be able to do this. So the question of the immortal soul, in my conception, just reduces to the question of whether or not God exists and cares about any of us enough to bring us back.

I honestly struggle to see any meaningful conflict with what we know from science about this understanding of the soul.

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I agree that there isn’t any necessary conflict. People have disagreements, but that’s not the same as a conflict.