Tim Keller is not an Evolutionary Creationist

@Mercer (cc: @swamidass)

Hmmm… are you making a distinction without a difference?

When Joshua is discussing “BioLogos” … is that an idea? Or is he going all “Tribal” on the principle officers of BioLogos?

I don’t even know or care who the principles are. I care about what the Mission Statement says… and what it says after it is amended, and what the significance is in the change in wording.

How would I even begin to get “tribal”? Would I have to start discussing where people went to school? What ethnicity they are? Who they married?

I think you are having a hard time “walking this one back” … because I just don’t see Tribalism of any real significance in most of what we’ve been discussing.

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Using labels for people and groups is a necessity. Postdocs, Russians, skydivers, fishermen…

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In what way does it being a necessity negate it being a barrier to understanding?

How can a necessity for communication (and hence, understanding) be a barrier to understanding?

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@Mercer,

Have you noticed that labels help you understand how operations differ from category to category?

What kind of mystical brain activity are you imagining that is somehow foiled by the use of labels?

I subscribe to a YEC position. So do you think that i am stupid do you? I attend a church in America that is “YEC” and is bursting at its seams and is planting churches and has many really smart people of faith in attendance.

I have found this whole conversation in this section like chasing the wind. @swamidass is concerned about biologos branding semantics and others concerned about trying to find a balance of “science” and theology when theology consists of a God who confounds science. Then the issue of racism and how this is aplified by GAE vs not etc. I believe both evolution fr apes and GAE amplify the propensity for the evil in human nature towards racism. And i have no doubt in my mind about this.

It almost seems like the mass of confusion and disagreement and even racism could be thwarted by simply subscribing to the most simple model that God seems to put forth in His Word. The reason we humans dont like simplicity sometimes is because we want to give our slant, our own position, our own “brand” for namesake and a book deal and this leads to complicating the terms. I find it ironic that this very real propensity called sin that drives us to impress others about self and a very real issue called racism is EASILY overcome with the simplicity of the Biblical model put forth by God. Notice the simplicity of this model that stills all disunity, disharmony, propensity to sin, propensity towards racism and most importantly does not defame God as one who creates evil out of the nature of His being:

God created the world, plants animals and man in His own image with common grace in their design to adapt and micro evolve and He calls this “very good.”

Man sinned and God in His perfect righteousness and holiness banned the first and only humans from the garden and subjected that “very good” creation in all of the systems on eartg to futility.

God so loved the WORLD of people whom He directly created in His image that He sent His Son to absorb the wrath of God which all people of all colors deserved because we all sin and we are all sinners by nature.

In heaven, people of all races, colors and nationalities will rejoice in their Savior together forever.

In this simple model, there is no room for racism and no room for propensity for “branding” anything and no room for chasing the wind discussions like this one.

And i understand that scientists have a bend toward naturalistic explanations for everything. The Bible however starts with the most unscientific concept imaginable: God created mass energy by His Word from…ready?..nothing! That in itself is far more unscientific than any yec view i have come across. Maybe you, Mr. Burke need to have a chat with God to tell Him that perhaps His written word about how he created the universe needs to go.

Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.”

@greg,

So you oppose efforts to demonstrate that the special creation of Adam and Eve can be a viable belief for today’s Christians?

Greg, Are you even able to correctly describe a GAE scenario?

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Offspring of Adam and Eve created in Gods image cohabitate and mate w man not made in Gods image who evolved via disease ridden natural evil destruction of the weak and chance selection of the strong evolutionisn. Question now becomes, who is genetically more of Adam and more of evolution? Additionally, it attempts to marry the christian worldview w an atheistic based worldview. This in insulting to the very God who gives new life and who puts love in our hearts for fellow mankind. How is a manmade idea conducive to true gospel empowered escape from sin and sinfulness of not valuing and loving neighbor regardless of nationality, i dont know.

@Greg

Greg, Greg, Greg, poor Greg:

  1. Genesis 2, which describes Adam and Eve, makes no mention of being made in God’s image.

  2. Genesis 1, which does mention God’s image, is the chapter that discusses humans without Eden and without the Tree of Good and Evil.

Genesis 1 and the chapters about Cain being married and building a city (for 3 people?) are the warrants for the pre-Adamite population (made in God’s image via Evolution).

Maybe you’ll get it right next time.

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Not even that, he built the city for himself.

I will keep this in mind. Thanks George

@djordje

Of course, I was being ironic.

The Genealogical Adam scenarios usually detail this text as an indication that Cain, and his family, were now living amongst the pre-Adamite population (created through evolution, but with the image of God)! And that the city had plenty of people moving in.

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That’s a scenario I can agree with. And, really, the only scenario that is, with or without evolution and 6000 year old earth, plausible.

Yes, I think that even in YEC scenario, the only possibility is existence of pre-adamites.

That is not what the GAE is, for the record. Argue against strawmen all you need, but don’t conflate them with me.

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Yes. Have you noticed that you are trying to misrepresent my cautions about labeling people as cautions about labeling in general, in this case operations?

In what world are operations and people synonymous?

Racism is an obvious example.

Again, I’m saying that labeling ideas is preferable to labeling people. The title of this thread is an example of unproductive labeling of people.

Do they rejoice together in your chosen church on Earth?

What about all the gay, transsexual, and intersex people? What happens to them in heaven, according to your beliefs?

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@mercer,

In what world is it possible to talk about BioLogos, and have you accuse the speaker of labeling PEOPLE instead of an organization?

Gotcha

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George, the context is the title of the thread.

@Mercer

I would have assumed that until you started throwing your net pretty wide.

So… now you just don’t want anyone characterizing Tim Keller (or any other individual), right?

It’s not nice to say Tim Keller (or any other individual) is not an Evolutionary Creationist? Is that what you are trying to say?