What does theology study?

I am happy to answer, and do not consider it prying. I am curious about how the universe and things in it behave, how they got to be here in the first place, and all manner of things like that. I seek explanations of those things. I would have simply left the subject of religion out of my life, were it not for the fact that religion purports to offer insight into these things, and so I was always curious to see what insight it offered. After a good deal of time which might have been spent reading something more useful, I have come to the conclusion that religion does not, in fact, offer insights into these things, and that, in fact, the evidence for Christian belief is not of a kind, character or quantity that would suffice to convict a serial jaywalker of jaywalking.

I do not consider my conclusions about this to be “choices,” in any meaningful sense. I know people who quite explicitly choose what to believe, and those people are invariably the sorts whose judgment is highly questionable. I try very hard not to “choose” what to believe because my choices can’t affect what’s real; instead, I choose to take in information about things and I choose to evaluate it as best I can.

When it comes to religion, I suppose that I continue to hold out the tentative possibility that there is something I’ve never heard of that will be enormously convincing, and that when I encounter it I’ll become a Sufi, or a Buddhist, or some such thing. I even hold out the possibility that there is evidence for Christian faith which is unknown to me, though I find that difficult to believe as I have tried – this religion being, after all, the dominant religion of my culture – to ascertain what the evidence for it is, where at least I can say that my investigations of Jainism or Baha’i-ism have been much more cursory and so it’s likely that I do not know the whole case that a believer in those things would make.

But choice, where belief is concerned, is in my view a grave error. It is hard enough to be objective, especially where everything in my culture prejudices me in favor of the Christian religion; why toss the effort at objectivity out the window and “choose”?

I am not concerned about the consequences of belief or non-belief in the “hereafter” sense. This is partly because I am inclined to think that there is no hereafter to worry about, but it is also partly because the manner of presentation of Christian faith is so often couched in terms of a threat of some sort of horrid consequence. I regard this as job-security for priests, and unlikely to be true.

Take, for example, Matthew 25:35 to 40 (if you don’t have a reference handy, this is the “I was hungry and you fed me” bit.). I regard this passage as a beautiful ethical statement of the highest sort: regardless of whether one believes in a god or not, the surprising identification of the divine with the weak and needy, rather than with the mighty, and the suggestion that all people are called to aid others and relieve suffering, is profound, and by the time I finish reading it I am practically choked up with the deep sentiment of it.

But then we get to the next bit, starting at verse 41: the cursing and the committing to the fires of those who did not feed the hungry, et cetera. And that spoils it. It ruins the point, it ruins the mood, it takes this high ethical statement and it renders it as a threat of divine whupping. I cannot read things like that without thinking that this can only be the work of priests in need of job security, and far from finding it persuasive, I find it so detestable that it is impossible for me to imagine having respect for a god that was responsible for its issuance.

What to believe? Not what to “choose” to believe, but what to believe? I am convinced that nothing but evidence of the most compelling character can justify belief in paranormal forces and beings. I find none of that on offer. What I do find are texts like this, which bear the stamp of their lowly origin. If the texts were quite perfect, they could do nothing to establish the facts of which they speak; but they are, in my view, so very much less than that.

I am glad not to believe in the god of the OT, or even its slightly-reformed NT version. I do not think I would worship it if it did exist, but I certainly would live in fear over the prospect of some sort of eternal fiery disemboweling session. I think that my father, who was very much raised to believe in this harsh and punitive demon-god, died still trembling at the prospect – though he had spent his life “seeking” supernatural truth – that this was, after all, the god he would meet and that the nasty Lutheran church of his childhood would turn out to have been right, after all.

But, choice? I reject it. I cannot choose what persuades me. I spent a lot of time as an advocate, choosing HOW to persuade others, but in that role one learns how very important it is not to persuade oneself too thoroughly. My object is not to find something to believe; my object is to get it right.

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I love it - a lawyer and a physicist discussing morality. You guys are doing great.

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Thanks for clarifying. I didn’t answer my own question? No, I have far more questions than answers I’m afraid.

I felt puzzled rather than hostile, so I’m sorry if it came across that way.

I’ve been studying it off and on as an interested amateur for 30 years, but I certainly don’t have a degree.

Ok. Now comes the bit that might horrify some of the other Christians on here: I don’t care. Now in case that sounds more hostile than I intended, let me elaborate further. I believe if you are given the freedom to choose then that includes the freedom to choose differently to me. I am not threatened or upset by your choice, and I do not feel any obligation to try and talk you out of it or try and change your mind. Maybe that means I am a terrible person and I have a defective empathy gland or some such, but I think your choice is your choice, and people should respect that. Nor should you be harassed or discriminated against because of it. Instead I should treat you the way I would want to be treated.

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It’s flippant answers to serious questions, among other things, that help me think you’re being hostile.

No problem. Now, could we discuss what “God is good” means, if anything, to the limit of your understanding, if any?

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It wasnt flippant. I have a degree in analytical chemistry, a degree in teaching, and a diploma in adult education. I was studying for a diploma in biblical studies at one stage but did not complete it. Other than assuring you I don’t feel hostile I’m not sure what else I can do about that.

Why would I want to do that? And that isn’t meant flippantly or with hostility, it is a genuine and sincere question. As I have already said, I feel no need to change you. I feel no need to win points for my tribe because I don’t really have a tribe. I’m not interested in entering pointless debates with people who are. I find the divine command theory plausible, at least until I find something better. Of course when I say divine command I am bearing in mind the two tier demarcation between a creator and created I mentioned previously. I think things are considered good not because God commands them or God considers them good but because they are consistent with God’s nature. Now I am interested in extending my own theological understandings, so I do continue to read on the subject and engage in respectful discussions with other people who are exploring the same subjects. I’ve outlined these ideas already but you do not find them convincing. I’m ok with that and I hope you find something that works for you.
I’m supposed to be working from home and I can already see that I am spending way more time on here than usual, so I will politely decline your invitation with as little hostility or flippancy as I can manage.

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That is another impossible contradiction in Christianity.

Being fully human means to be aware of one’s mortality. Being fully divine means being aware of one’s immortality.

You can’t be both.

And no, being dead for just 3 days doesn’t count as being dead.

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Ok, so if it isn’t incomprehensible, than please tell us why you think the afterlife is going to be good for you, and what you base that on. When you explain this to us, please keep in mind at all times that the relationship between creator and creation might differ from what is considered good in a relationship between two creations, and that the creator has at various times done pretty awful things to its creation (if we are to believe the Biblical accounts).

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Not a “whom”, but to the concept of “goodness”, whatever that is in the particular worldview I am now assuming.

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If I understand that being correctly, I don’t think the idea of being “separated” from it is even coherent. The being is supposed to be the ground of all existence, no?

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But the question had nothing to do with your degrees. “To any degree” just means “how much”. I find it hard to believe you don’t know that, which is why I accused you of being flippant. Or perhaps you didn’t read anything other than that one word? What’s going on there?

Well, you’re here. We’ve been talking about it for a while now. Why are you suddenly uninterested after all that?

What about being dead for a year for tax purposes, like Hotblack Desiato?

Going back to the exchange which started this thread, I think we now have some data on the point in question.

As I then indicated, I do not consider “all academic discplines outside the scientific-empirical fields” to be this. But the view that theology is exactly that has, I think, been buttressed here.

Faced with the problem of god’s evil, what does theology have to offer? No data. No facts. Just evasions and excuses which are founded upon completely unsupported philosophy-in-the-skies notions of god’s ineffability and inscrutability, applied asymmetrically so that “god is good” is a perfectly reasonable statement but “god is evil” is a statement of a character which cannot even legitimately be made. Sometimes it isn’t even as good as that. Sometimes this god is made into a Franz Liebkind character who, when confronted with his own depraved behavior, simply responds, “I am ze author! You are ze audience! I outrank you!”

Is it any wonder that those of us who ask questions about the foundations of Christian belief and ethics chafe, just a bit, at the suggestion that our conceptions of these things are naive and unschooled?

What insight has schooling in theology generated, for the faithful? What profound new learning of demonstrable aspects of reality has emerged? Where, after thousands of years of study and inquiry, has it brought us? To this?

And where is the factual basis, the grounding, the sine qua non of any legitimate factual (whether empirical or not) inquiry into the nature of things? Nowhere. Old texts, and philosophical meanderings upon them, coupled with the occasional claim to private revelation which, whatever its character may seem like to its recipient, is utterly useless to anyone else. Declarations that those motivated by the spirit can understand things which others cannot, which are utterly useless to anyone who is honestly considering whether he ought to believe that there is any spirit there to motivate him.

It’s a closed system. No insight goes in and none comes out, and the balance is maintained. It may have a kind of internal consistency with itself, which is maintained only by the most Rube-Goldbergish matrix of philosophical dodges. But who would trust such a thing to guide him?

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In my church world when they find out I am a TE I am invariably challenged on my theological qualifications and dismissed when I admit I have none. That I didn’t complete my Diploma in Biblical Studies is still something of a sore point with me. I suppose I interpreted your question in the manner in which I most commonly encounter it.

My disinterest might appear “sudden” to you but not to me. If you really want a better understanding of my motives and behaviour then the following data might be useful.

  1. I am generally a very low volume poster.
  2. I make no posts in what appear to be long ‘tribal wars’ threads (to be honest, I don’t even read them)
  3. My posts are usually related to archaeology of lands mentioned in the Bible.
  4. This thread is linked to one that had “Vesuvius” in the title,
  5. This thread no longer contains any archaeology but now seems to be turning into a long tribal war.
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Then I think you misremember. You joined the thread to announce that there are no innocent babies, continued with the claim that a potter can smash his pots if he feels like it, and went downhill from there. Nothing at all about archaeology, and in fact there never was any in the thread.

My tentative hypothesis is that you have been presented with questions for which you have no answer, not even a partial one. That’s no surprise, since I don’t think anyone has an answer, even a partial one.

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If non sequiturs count, there are plenty of answers. But I cannot say I have ever heard an answer that made a lick of sense.

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Part of their problem is they set too high a bar for themselves. It is actually not that difficult to construct a metaphysical account of morality or some such thing that is internally consistent and which commits no irredeemable logical fallacies.

But apologists for a religion almost invariably insist they have the only such account, and that is something that cannot easily be demonstrated.

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I would agree, as long as we are prepared to accept a very, very wide definition for what constitutes “morality.” But I don’t think that command-based, authority-based systems even ARE systems of morality. They are really just substitutes for morality, and not really suited to purpose. They may use terms like “right” and “wrong” but those terms, in such systems, no longer have their ordinary meanings.

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