So that means things are getting better?
Yes, for soldiers, at least. They are no longer cannon fodder in the millions. Our society in intolerant of war casualties. When a single soldier is killed in action, this whole nation takes note. He is given full military honors coming off the plane in Dover, De. The President is there. Contrast this with World War II where it took 2 months for a mother to get word that her son was killed in action. No body returned to US. US had a cemetery in France.
To see the absurdity in our military now, consider that we now have 5900 US troops in terrible living conditions. They are away from family for Thanksgiving, have to eat MREs and have no hot water for showers. Where are these brave men and women and what are they doing to protect our freedoms?
Well they are in California, Arizonia, New Mexico and Texas supposedly protecting our southern border from an invasion of kids from Central America. i gave money today to support our troops in Arizona.
I guess it all comes down to how we each define ābetterā.
No really. Some things are obviously better, like medical care and life expectancy. But you have some Chrisitans who need the world to be going down the toilet. Because if it is not going down the toilet why do you need a God for anything. You donāt need to be saved. From what? It is pretty good living. Sure we have problems but mostly we are all ultra rich compared to how people lived 2000 years ago.
The US is a 2 trillion dollar a year economy in a $20T world economy. We spend $600 billion a year for defense but have nearly zero loss of life. Thatās really not war in the traditional sense when whole countries were decimated.
Still not seeing the trend where itās getting better. I see evolution. Constant change. But not a trajectory Iād call improvement.
Thatās true for a rather small percentage of the population. Thereās a lot of people not on their computers in climate controlled homes sipping lattes and having intellectual arguments. Weāre all hoarding the resources on the backs of a lot of others who donāt enjoy the same perks.
Thatās helpful. Things are clearer now. Thank you. And itās an interesting perspective.
Thatās true for billions of people. Poverty worldwide is down. Famine in the world is nearly gone. There are more people dying of being overfeed than undernourished. There are a billion people on Facebook communicating globally instantly with family and friends while sipping lattes.
Out of 7 billion. 14%.
That was the population of the world two hundred years ago.
Well, we can agree to disagree. Itās really a subjective take which way you read the statistics and whether or not you see that as getting ābetterā or not.
But I do understand and agree with you about the whole Christian āgoing to hell in a hand basketā narrative.
Salvation really isnāt about saving anyone in this life. This life is about the struggles and challenges. Thereās value in those experiences, and I think thatās an aspect thatās often overlooked.
Being saved isnāt a safety net where life is concerned. If a Christian steps off a building theyāre still going to fall. Salvation isnāt like having a lucky horse shoe in your pocket. It has everything to do with what comes after.
This life and this universe are finite. If we figure out solutions to all of our problems and make the most of this life, eventually this universe is still going to collapse back in on itself. And all the greatest of our achievements will be just as meaningless as if we spent every day of our lives being the worst people we could be. In the whole of the universeās existence, all we do and all we achieve wonāt matter.
So whether or not the world is getting ābetterā or not is really irrelevant. Thatās my view, anyway.
I donāt think you are up to date on the current understanding of the universe that you live in. The universe may be infinite in size as our observable part is expanding and the expansion is accelerating. The universe is flat so no it wonāt collapse on itself but will expand for all time. But as you said our lives are finite and fleeting. This question is how do we want to live our remain years. My preference is to live it happy, wealthy and wise in this time period and in the location with the people I care about.
Right. I should say itāll eventually go cold rather than collapse back in on itself, but the point remains. All humanity accomplishes, whether we cure cancer or completely annihilate ourselves, doesnāt matter in the grand scheme. Itāll still all equate to a zero sum in the end.
If thatās all there is.
Which is where I get hung up when thinking in the context of a god-less universe. If weāre products of an indifferent universe, why are we not also indifferent? That does not compute to me.
Because humans evolved to invent culture, technology, and the cognitive abilities to define what they want to do with their lives. Looking at the world, it is what I would it expect it to be - a god-less universe.
Sorry, I donāt mean to grill you. Iām just always fascinated to hear a well reasoned explanation for some of the things that totally trip me up logically.
What you said there, āwhat they want to do with their livesā. That always seems odd to me. I mean, I get the survival aspect of evolution. But the aspirations. The desires to achieve something meaningful. Thatās where it starts to get weird to me. Whereās that come from?
I realize there are social elements to some of it. But at the conceptual level, I just canāt work out how/why these things came about. Itās usually just explained much like you just said, in the vernacular of evolution. Once you put it in that context, everyone just nods and agrees and moves on. And Iām left there shaking my head wondering what Iām missing.
I think that as children we all have aspirations. I wanted to excel at sports, then excel academically came in. We all have aspirations what we want to do with our lives. Some achieve some of their aspirations, others do not. Some who achieve what they aspired to find out it lacks meaning and importance to them. Or that what they want to aspire to is actually dreadful and they donāt like it at all. For me the key is to define your purpose.
Once you have your purpose, then achieve it. Now of course, you are perfectly allowed to change your purpose every day. I like that. Today my purpose is to enjoy the day by doing (or not doing) this or that. If you want to be happy, figure out what makes you happy and then do it. It is quite simple way of life. And remember that the universe doesnāt care or give a damn so be good to yourself and the oneās you care about.
I get that, and experience the same.
Some of the wisest people Iāve encountered are atheists. And it just short fuses me to try to think in that context, and confounds me theyāre not short circuited by the same.
You said the key for you is to define your purpose. That jolts me in the same way it always jolts atheists when I say Iām a Christian after wrapping up some long drawn out evolution statement. It seems a contradiction.
The universe that created us has existed for billions of years. We came along way late in the process. We had nothing to do with our being here. So how can we be the ones to define what our purpose is? āPurposeā suggests itās a reason why you exist. So it seems backwards to after the fact be the one to define what that purpose is.
We basically came together a piece at a time. The elements in this environment simply respond to this environment by behaving as they do. Somewhere along that causal chain the bits required fell into place in the right way and we got up and started deciding for ourselves why weāre here and what weāre meant to do.
I feel like Iām rambling as I struggle to convey what Iām trying to get at. I hope you can make some sense of that.
I appreciate you humoring me.
Being an atheist is really easy. Try being an āatheist for a dayā Just do your regular thing that day but anytime a thought about God or Jesus comes into you head, just ignore it. Do that for 24 hours and see how you feel about yourself.
When I said set our own purpose, I meant each person does this individual by himself. Since the universe has no purpose that I can figure out, limit purpose to just yourself for this moment in time. What is your purpose in life for the next fifteen minutes. Mine is to chat with you while sipping on a tea and eating trolley bun that my wife got at the bakery today. It is a pretty good purpose in life for the next fifteen minutes. And quite comfortable and meaningful. A secondary purpose in life for the next fifteen minutes is to humor you like you ask me to because we seem to have human-to-human connected to each other over time and distance over this media.
There was a time I thought I was headed that way. Specifically about the God/Jesus stuff. There were a growing number of things that kept falling apart when analyzed. Similar to the problem I tried to describe above.
So I already know how my āatheist for a dayā excursion would go. I analyze things to death. Itās not the thoughts about God and Jesus Iād have to ignore. Itād be the analyzing. Like my question here. Thatās why it doesnāt stick. Things exactly like that.
I get all the cause-effect stuff science explains. But itās the stuff thatās just glossed over. Like the will that drives life. Physical capability of a living organism isnāt enough. There also has to be a will that compels it. A want to survive, to eat. Those elements are just āgivensā in the context of the evolution explanation. Lifeās driven. Fact. Thatās just what it does.
But that doesnāt mesh with the indifferent universe just falling into place idea where this all comes from. Whereād that will come from? From what? Itās not something we can see in an MRI. Itās gone when we die. But nothingās gone that was there before. The bodyās just dead. That will is gone. That life. Whatever that is.
If itās all mechanical then these mechanics just donāt fit.