Where did God come from?

But they aren’t just names. They’re names representing particular entities that are different from the one Michael meant, and yes, he was arguing for the Christian God of the Christian religion. As you do at all times other than this.

You are at the complicated stage of your career. In a few decades, you will converge to the simple for such things as the meaning of life, the expansion rate of the universe, and the air speed velocity of a sparrow.

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I mostly agree with @Ashwin_s that the specific properties of god(s) under discussion are not too relevant. The two hypotheses in question are God vs. no-God. God could be the God of Christianity, Islam, Zeus or Marduk, as long as they have the requisite properties - powerful enough to be the creator God and interested in communicating with his creation(s). This is similar to how there can be disagreements in the details of evolution but there’s no disagreement that things evolved in some way.


Zeus wasn’t thought of as Creator, merely part of creation. :slight_smile:

Don’t know much about Marduk though.


But it seems like every person professes faith “in the one true God” By saying this they are making the pronouncement that all the other Gods are false Gods. So isn’t everyone atheistic to everyone else’s God but their own? Atheist just don’t believe in one more God than you do -your’s.

That is a narrow linear way of thinking about this. You really need to read CS Lewis: Till We Have Faces.

@Patrick, if I buy you a book by CS Lewis, would you read it? I’d suggest The Great Divorce. If I bought one fo you, woudl you read it?


You don’t have to buy it for me, as I can get it and read it. Thanks for the offer though. Sure, I’ll get it and read it. It is about a bus ride between hell and heaven, isn’t it? I think I was on that bus once from Reno to Las Vegas or was it from the Bronx after a Yankee Game to New Jersey. :sunglasses:

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This thread puts a whole new spin on my understanding of the phrase, “let sleeping dogs lie.” Dogs practicing unconscious deceitful speech while in a dream state? Say it isn’t so! Maybe it’s just time for another nap, for those who prefer to think this way? We’ll try to wake you again later; deal? Lewis’ book might be more worth staying awake for than you’d think!

I don’t think this line of argumentation makes sense. To make an analogy, there’s a fundamental difference between people disagreeing on which system of government makes the most sense, versus people who believe that all forms of government are illegitimate.

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Ok, tell me about your beliefs in Allah?

The substitution makes no difference. @Michael_Callen’s question was about complexity, not about validity or truth.

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Is it more complex to say that Zeus exists than to say that Zeus was made up?

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Might be interesting for you to know that in my mother tongue, Indonesian, “Allah” is a general terms for God - our Bibles use the word to refer to the God of the OT.

Christians and Muslim agree that God created the universe. Which is why WLC defends the Kalam Cosmological Argument which was first put forth by medieval Islamic philosophers. However we disagree on the nature and attributes of God, such as the Trinity, as well as which ones are God’s prophets.

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Sure God/Allah/YHWH created the universe, the earth and people beginning with Adam. But the problem comes in with this fellow who preforms miracles 2000 years ago.


Jesus does turn everything upside down. He is the one me to watch closely.


Think of it this way… suppose you exist as a person (shouldn’t be difficult to do)… And someone who doesn’t know you goes around asking people do you know Patrick… most will say no… some will say yes.
Follow the question with what’s he like?
Every person will give answers that’s different to varying degrees. Does this lead to the logical conclusion that @Patrick doesn’t exist?

It’s similar with God. Only he is far more famous through creation while being far more mysterious in his nature(from the human perspective).
Our descriptions of God does not change the reality. It’s his revelation of himself that tells us the truth.

So the question is how has God revealed himself and to whom.
I and most people here believe Jesus is the perfect revelation of God. And this is the result of an encounter with Jesus more often than a result of pure logic.
However the existence of God can be deduced from his creation.

Of course I exist today. Even though you can’t actually see me typing you are very sure that I exist. I also believe that I exist and I am not in some kind of computer program designed by intelligent software designers.
But based on 54 years of investigation starting when I was 6, I have not ever come close to believing in any God, spirit, or ghost. I certainly can imagine things and I certainly can hear myself thinking and going round in circles with various thought patterns. But I have no basis that it is some God trying to communicate with me. I find it easier to live without any supernatural beliefs.

Actually it’s doesn’t matter what you find to be easier. It was a tough choice for me to become a Christian. It would have been easier to stay as a non-religious person.
What matters is the truth. For example, with respect to spirits… the question to ask is whether you have a spirit… i.e whether it’s only your body and it’s molecules or whether there is more to you.

I"m still entertaining the theory that some of you are chatbots created by my graduate students to mess with me. This is why I hope you can all meet me in person. This is how I might know you are real…unless this too is part of the ruse…


Does transitive, second hand meeting counts :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:? You’ve met @dga471 and he can confirm that I am a real person! (Unless I am @dga471 in disguise)