Why do Christians Care About Myths?

You know, the practice of law really makes one confront that. I recall a case where I had a rather contentious set of issues, on which motions to dismiss had been denied, and it was before a judge whose rulings I often really thought were not well considered. I went to the first status conference and discovered that the judge was a close old friend of counsel for my opponent – they had practiced together in the bad old days of Philadelphia legal life, when Jews (which they were, and I was not) could only get jobs in Jewish law firms, and they knew each other well.

At a point like that, you can be a horrible advocate, give up, and say to yourself, “well, the judge is friends with my opponent. I don’t like his rulings even on a good day, and this isn’t looking like a good day. Nothing good can come of this.”

Oddly enough, I learned a great lesson here, because my attitude was even worse than that: I thought that I was so badly on the outs on this one that I was going to have to attack the judge’s ruling on some jurisdictional issues, when that ruling came, in a petition for mandamus relief before the Court of Appeals – definitely a hail-mary sort of move, but one which, on balance, looked like it was probably worth doing here.

So, what’d I do? I wrote the best motion for summary judgment I had ever written – I didn’t let an evidentiary issue get through the seams anywhere. I documented the heck out of every fact upon which I needed to rely, with exhaustive citations to the supporting evidence. I didn’t really think the judge would be fair to me. What I did think was that if I was going to do a mandamus hail-mary, I needed to have made the clearest record I could.

And, you know what? The judge ruled in my favor. The man I thought was unpersuadable, and entirely disinclined to persuasion, was persuaded.

One can always punt: “well, I can see that your preconceptions prevent you from fairly considering my argument.” Sure. One can always do that. But it is often basically a concession that you have no argument worth putting.

I get told all the time by Christians that my views are too fixed to be changed. I find this hilarious. My views on all manner of things – political, social, economic, philosophical – have been changed 180 degrees at times by persuasive marshalling of evidence and argument. Never by arguments of the quality that tend to make up the bulk of Christian apologetics, however. Good arguments. Persuasive arguments. Arguments backed by persuasive evidence and well made.

Apologetics, at least, is well named. It has so very, very much to apologize for.

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I think it is fair to say that it is neither possible to definitively prove nor to disprove the existence of God. Thus, belief is just as rational as unbelief.

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I have observed two different categories of Christians: 1) those who have been raised in the faith, and 2) those who come to faith later in life. For some in the first category, cultural conditioning, would come into play. However, for those in the second category, there must be another explanation, such as perhaps a combination of understanding the reasonableness of the faith, and personal experiences with God. Some examples of reasonable, rational people who came to faith later in life (not due to cultural conditioning), include:

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The latter doesn’t follow from the former. We might say the same thing about Santa, or Thor, it is neither possible to definitely prove nor to disprove their existence, but it isn’t equally rational to believe in Santa or Thor, as it is to not believe in their existence.

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See my post above yours (which I appear to have been writing as you were writing yours). You are making a category error. Believing in Santa is not the same thing as believing in God. Children believe in Santa when they are little, because they trust and believe their parents who tell them the story of Santa. However, no one comes to believe in Santa later in life, whereas many Christians have come to believe in God later in life.

Those are all good reasons for why isn’t true, that just because it isn’t definitely possible to prove nor to disprove the existence of Santa, that it is equally rational to believe and to disbelieve in Santa’s existence.

The lack of a definitive proof for or against something generally does not make a belief in or against it, equally rational.

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I disagree that belief is just as rational as unbelief. Rationality really depend on what the belief is and how that belief impacts your life and society? Individuals and society can believe that God will protect them from the COVID-19 virus. They can pray, and thank God for intervening on their behalf. I would say this is irrational belief to believe that pray and worship can have any impact on COVID-19 virus. Rational unbelief would be that we have to use science and good public health policies to minimize the effect COVID-19 virus is having on people. In this case, not believing in a helpful God is more rational. Look at how Dr. Francis Collins of the NIH and how VP President Mike Pence is handling COVID-19. Collins has rational belief rooted in science and Pence is irrational belief rooted in prayer.

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Both are childhood beliefs from parents. Even adults coming to Christianity later in life mainly do so to fill some void in their childhood and their lives. Like wanting to be loved and accepted by a group.

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thanks for that: I forgot to mention Francis Collins in my list of people who came to faith later in life. I just added him :slight_smile:

Francis Collins and Mike Pence are probably both taking action AND praying. There is nothing wrong with doing both.

That reminds me: I should go wash my hands and pray for an effective public health response to COVID-19 :slight_smile:

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Dr. Collins like Dr. Swamidass are examples how beliefs can used for the good of the individual and society. VP Pence is example of how beliefs are harmful to individuals and society.

I’m not so sure that’s actually true. If taking action succeeds on it’s own merits, the praying believer is likely to ascribe success to aid by God in achieving something in which God might have had zero influence or interest.
And if it doesn’t succeed, the believer is likely to rationalize that they were undeserving of help. So whatever happens God will only ever get credit for the good stuff, and only humans will be blamed for the bad stuff.

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You don’t see the difference between how Dr. Collins and VP Pence are handling COVID-19?

COVID-19 knows no national boundaries nor knows what religion an effected person is.

Dr. Collins is using science and effective health policy to work the problem.

VP Pence is using Christian Nationalism in the form of US evangelical christian ceiling mumblings (prayer) to some how to get God to help the United States with spread of the virus because the US is a Christian God-fearing nation asking for God’s help.

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Since “existence” is a quality we have to turn to evidence, rather than to pure reason, to evaluate, it is not possible to definitively prove or disprove the existence of anything at all (well, maybe “cogito ergo sum” works, but that’s about it). And it is possible to construct rational systems around any number of false beliefs, so observing that faith can be as rational as no-faith isn’t very helpful – it’s obviously true that rational systems can be constructed in either.

But if what you mean is that since definitive proof is unavailable, belief is just as reasonable as unbelief, that formulation doesn’t actually work. Once definitive proof is unavailable, one is kicked out of “pure reason” and cast into the “weight of the evidence” form of argument which is how we actually resolve (or, in principle, should resolve) most questions of fact we face. All one then can say is that belief and non-belief are both possible answers and that the only way to judge between them is by evaluating the evidence. Both are surely not equally reasonable, unless the question really is balanced extraordinarily finely.

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Thanks for that analysis.

BTW: I have the impression that all the believers I listed up at post # 64 are reasonable people, who have done their best to evaluate the evidence before them. An atheist might very well have evaluated those evidences differently, which would also be reasonable

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You went from rational to reasonable. Care to explain the difference between rational and reasonable?

Michelle ~ I would agree with this, except of course, I don’t think the views are equally rational.
If you want to think of “proof” as something that yields certainty, like a sound deductive argument, or a mathematical proof, it isn’t needed for rationality, not by far. Neither do we need that kind of ‘proof’ for our rational beliefs to qualify as knowledge. Rational belief really only calls for the plausiblility of one’s position in view of the known evidence which changes as we learn.

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Well, I was obviously generalising so I agree that cultural conditioning may not be the main reason for some people. However, the brute fact that religion gets transmitted from generation to generation in pretty much the same way as other cultural norms and values suggests that, on the whole, this will be the major reason. The evidence is clear - believers in the various religions are not mixed equally well throughout all the populations on Earth. Muslims tend to live where other Muslims live, Christians tend to live where other Christians live, Buddhists tend to live where other Buddhists live, Hindus tend to live where other Hindus live. Such a pattern clearly cannot be reconciled with the notion that each believer arrives at their particular belief independent fom their environment.

This does not mean that there aren’t believers who, independently of their cultural surroundings, arrived at their belief or switched over from another one. I personally know one or two who became Christians from atheism (and also a few who went the other way). However, if that was the norm, we would see a much, much more complete mixing of religions that we actually observe.

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I completely agrew with this. Well stated.

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Well, you know, the ad hominem thing doesn’t work as a positive argument any more than it does as a negative one. That some seemingly reasonable people reach a conclusion certainly doesn’t make the conclusion reasonable.

I’m not suggesting that there can’t a reasonable way to reach theism, though I do not know of one and am inclined to think that I have seen as much evidence – for Christian theism, at least – as I am ever likely to see as the book closed on it a while ago. My point is only that it’s of very little value to consider what systems of thought might be deemed “rational” when the issue at hand is undoubtedly one of weighing evidence thought to support or to negate a proposition.

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What do you mean about the book being closed?

What evidences have you heard that were unconvincing?

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