Why Does ID Criticize TE?

(T J Runyon) #21

I’m interested in developing an ID model within the framework of common ancestry. I just don’t ever see myself denying common ancestry. But the mechanisms? Who knows? So I’m just trying to figure out how it would work. It’s keeping me up at night unfortunately

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #22

I think you mean a model for understanding God’s guidance. I do not think you mean an ID model, because you do not think it is detectable with scientific methods. Such a model is not ID.

Happy to talk about it more.

I’m not sure what you mean by mechanisms. There are several available. Maybe I’ll list some out later. Just keep in mind that the God who raised Jesus from the dead can certainly ensure a few bases of DNA flip correctly. I do not know how he does this any more than I now how He raised Jesus from the dead. Nor do I think my ignorance in this matters.

(T J Runyon) #23

And really the type of questions im interested in evolutionary biology are more of the why questions and not the how questions. So mechanism isnt too relevant for my interests.

(T J Runyon) #24

When I say mechanisms I’m referring to mutation, selection, drift etc.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #25

Then I’m not sure I understand your question! =)

(T J Runyon) #26

I will definitely try to be more clear in my response tomorrow. I’m going to try to wind down for the night.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) split this topic #27

3 posts were split to a new topic: The Future of Peaceful Science

(Jon Garvey) #28

Joshua, from my own perspective let me add that the recent hints at theological movement have not been accompanied by any distancing from very different views to which I drew their attention years ago. We are expected to forget that former leaders there ever said things that are incompatible with what is now being said - or perhaps, what is inferred by sympathetic readers from what is being said.

Circumlocution seldom clarifies positions!

(Mark M Moore) #29

No need to let it keep you up at night. God is real, He is worth trusting, and He has already won. But here is a snippet of my musings that I think @swamidass was referring to when I said these ideas have some overlap…

(S. Joshua Swamidass) split this topic #32

A post was split to a new topic: Behind the Shadow of Oz

(George) #33

I would be most interested in seeing how these individuals state their Old Earth Creationism.
It’s the worst possible position… it takes the science of geology as valid … and rejects the science of geology regarding fossils and says it is garbage.

I think the “market” shows the relative weakness of Old Earth Creationism. How many organizations are there for that position, compared to the number of groups for Young Earth Creationism and how many groups for Evolution?

Will Dembski > ? Opposed Global Flood … but also opposes Common Ancestry. < Pretty confused Prof.
Steve Meyer > ? < Okay, I’m convinced… he’s an Old Earth Creationist.
Mike Behe > ? Theistic Evolution
David Berlinski > ?
Doug Axe > ?
Ann Gauger > ? Probably Old Earth Creationist - doesn’t appear to support Evolution
Casey Luskin > Old Earth Creationist (not ever YEC)
Wayne Rossiter > Left I.D., a TE of some type.

ENV Covers Dialogue on Adam
(S. Joshua Swamidass) #34

Behe is TE. @Agauger, as I understand is on the border of OEC and TE (not 100% sure where she stands on common descent). Doug Axe is a question mark (I’ve heard from some he is YEC).

[In a prior draft, I stated that Casey Luskin was a YEC. That was an error on my part; he is an OEC and as far as I know, he has never been a YEC]

(Vincent Torley) #35

Hi @gbrooks9,

Dembski’s story is worth reading here:

Disillusion with Fundamentalism (May 30, 2016).

See also:

Whatever Happened to Intelligent Design Theorist William Dembski? By Scott Buchanan (March 19, 2017)

He’s definitely an OEC.

(Guy Coe) #36

Hugh Ross says that Steve Meyer would prefer to work for RTB, so he’d have more room to maneuver. He’s almost certainly OEC. As am I, as well. I disagree with the characterization above. Nothing in OEC, e.g., requires a rejection of common descent; though I’m having a heck of a time getting Faz Rana to understand my model.

(Casey Luskin) #37

Dear all,

I am extremely busy right now with some very important personal matters so this will be my one and only post here (for the foreseeable future):

Vincent Torley is correct: I am not a young earth creationist and I accept that the earth is billions of years old. In fact, I don’t remember having ever been a young earth creationist, so my views on this matter did not “change” because I was never a young earther to begin with.

In fact, the reason I put the statement front and center on my personal website that “I accept that the universe and earth are billions of years old and I am not a young earth creationist” (see Vincent’s comment for the link) is because I’ve been misrepresented so many times on this point over the years that I needed a clear, unambiguous statement of my views on the age issues!

Anyways, I have been publicly on the record as being an “old earther” for many years. One example of this can be seen in a 2013 post at https://evolutionnews.org/2013/12/on_the_age_of_t/ where I wrote (please note that the “Josh” referenced here is Josh Rosenau, not Joshua Swamidass):

Though I have nothing personal against young earth creationists, it’s not my viewpoint. On both scientific and theological grounds, I do not believe everything was created in six 24-hour days just a few thousand years ago. In fact, Josh should already know this. Here is what I wrote to him in a private e-mail on March 30, 2010:

Plate tectonics / continental drift / standard model of physics / HIV causes AIDS / age of the earth / big bang cosmology — in all of those areas I find the “consensus” view persuasive due to the evidence.

So I was perfectly clear to Josh that I accept the “consensus” view on the “age of the earth” because of “the evidence.” And this is nothing new; I’ve been quite public about my views on this for a long time. Indeed, earlier this year I co-authored a textbook and curriculum, Discovering Intelligent Design, that endorses the Big Bang model (and thus the standard age of the universe) because it’s a compelling argument for cosmic design. Yet Josh still goes around suggesting I might be a young earth creationist.

I don’t get it. I’d like to think that maybe he forgot what I wrote him. I don’t know for sure. But what I do know is this: when you’re dealing with the Darwin lobby and the NCSE, often what you say and what you do don’t matter. Their goal is to spin things and try to paint you in a negative light.

Another example of this sort of thing came in 2015 when David Klinghoffer wrote:

Let’s say that Larry Moran comes along and wants to contribute a comment. In the post I referred to from his own site, he includes a blatant untruth about our colleague Casey Luskin:

Casey Luskin can’t decide how old the universe is but he leans toward Young Earth Creationism. Yet he’s a leading spokesman for the “science” of intelligent design.

This is intended as a slur, and it’s flatly false. Casey has written countless articles here about cosmic origins, biological origins, and human origins that all, without exception, take for granted the standard time table reckoned in millions and billions of years. He is no Young Earth Creationist, clearly. Yet this doesn’t stop Darwin defenders from painting us with that brush. See here for Casey’s reply to another evolutionary advocate, Josh Rosenau of the National Center for Science Education, on the very same point. Jerry Coyne, evolutionary biologist and emeritus University of Chicago professor, has similarly tried to dismiss Stephen Meyer as a “young-earth creationist,” but at least Coyne then corrected himself and apologized.

David is exactly right: I am a big fan of the big bang model of the universe (which indicates that the universe is billions of years old) because I think the evidence supports it. I even once wrote that “the Big Bang is one of the best arguments for the design of the universe ever offered by science.” (Because I’m a new user, the forum apparently won’t let me post a link to that comment, but it’s from my 2014 post on ENV, “The Ham-Nye Creation Debate: A Huge Missed Opportunity”.)

In any case, just as I am 100% sure that I did not say that I was a YEC during my conversations with Joshua Swamidass (those conversations took place in 2015), I am also 100% sure that Joshua did not say otherwise maliciously, and I am sure that his comment was an unintentional mistake that is probably solely due to an imperfect memory. (It’s also quite possible that what Joshua thought was his memory was actually influenced by false things he read about me online where other people wrongly claimed I was a YEC.) Goodness knows–I don’t have the world’s best memory, so I could never judge anyone for having a memory that failed them!

So while I am a bit frustrated at having to correct the record on this point for the nth time, there are no hard feelings towards Joshua Swamidass.

Again, I am extremely busy right now with some very important personal matters so please don’t expect me to have any further involvement with this discussion thread. Having to post this has already taken up a enough of my limited time. The last thing I have time for right now is to get roped into an online conversation on any discussion forum about anything anywhere!



p.s. I should note that I left this comment because Joshua kindly emailed me to verify if I was a YEC and pointed me to this discussion. So thanks for checking with me, even if it was after some inaccurate comments were already made.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #38

I’m very sorry for the error. As you can see, I deleted my comments above, and will be sure to be sure to references this were relevant.

That is exactly right, though I still feel horrible about it. Sorry about this @CaseyLuskin. You are very kind to give me the benefit of the doubt, as I certainly did not mean this as a slur.

Thanks for joining here too, i’ll hope you can join in the conversation in the future too, when things calm down for you. Peace.

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #39

@bjmiller, you are an OEC, right? Not a YEC? What has your experience with different positions at DI been?

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #40

I was planning on getting around to that article of yours. With some key caveats, your article presents a reasonable position.

(T J Runyon) #41

Thanks! That definitely helps. I’ve had similar thoughts. Maybe God influenced an event that led to geographic isolation which led to a speciation event. Or he brings a new protein into existence in a population then nature selects for that protein. Along those lines. Do you see these fitting with what you stated in your article?

(Casey Luskin) #42

Ok I am breaking my promise to limit to one post here to just say thanks a big to Joshua for his quick and kind response to the situation. I appreciate him acknowledging the error and deleting the inaccurate comments. I not only forgive Joshua for the unintentional memory lapse, but I forgive him very happily!