Why Does ID Criticize TE?

@Eddie,

I never would have expected so much magical thinking from a level headed fellow like you.

It is BECAUSE we cant reduce God to an object of mathematical science that makes God, or his miraculous work, impossible to test!

Behe is the CLOSEST of all the ID proponents to suggest how God might design the cosmos: the Pool Shot Scenario.

You will recall that much of God’s “design work” before humanity was built into a so-called “front loaded” universe.

Such a Universe cannot be tested for God. End of Story. Stop. Full Stop.

We have wandered from the original topic. Let move these side questions to new topics.

Oh, shoot! I have to go over that bridge again tomorrow!

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@gbrooks9

So when the Biblical authors draw the conclusion that only the power of God could cause certain things (e.g., the escape from the Red Sea, the calming of the storm, the raising of the dead), are they “reducing God to an object of mathematical science”? Are they, as you say elsewhere, treating God as an “independent variable”? In such cases, are the Biblical authors guilty of “bad theology” for speaking about God in this way? And if it’s not “bad theology” to treat God as an “independent variable” in the case of the Biblical miracles, why would it be “bad theology” to treat God as an “independent variable” responsible for design in nature? What’s the basis for this double standard?

Well, if you want to start a new topic with a title something like, “Do ID and Creationism Offer Bad Theologies?”, that would be fine with me. But I’m not sure it’s really a new topic, since one of the reasons ID folks criticize TE is that they think TE offers bad theology. (And vice versa.) So this discussion about bad theology is relevant to the question at the top of the page.

The normal definition of idolatry is the worship of something less than God as divine. That would include the worship of statues, other human artifacts, animals, plants, mountains, streams, stars, and so on.

I’m trying to figure out how either ID or YEC (Poor OEC! It must feel sad, always being left out of these sweeping generalizations!) might be guilty of “idolatry.”

I have heard Biblical literalists, including YECs, being accused of “bibliolatry” – worshiping the Bible as if it were God. There is some justification for that charge, in some cases. I’ve made it myself, of some literalists. But as ID theory isn’t based on the Bible at all, and doesn’t invoke a literal reading of Genesis to establish anything, “idolatry” in that sense doesn’t apply to ID.

So what might be “idolatrous” about ID? Worshiping nature as if it were God? No, ID folks, at least Christian ID folks, can’t be charged with that one, either. They all very clearly distinguish between creation and Creator, often using metaphors like clock and clockmaker to stress the difference. They would be horrified at the thought of worshiping the sun, the moon, or even beautiful structures like the camera eye or the flagellum, or even the pervasive fine-tuning of nature. They would say we should admire those contrivances, but not worship them; they would say that worship is owed only to the author of those contrivances. And of course, this was exactly the position of the inspirers and founders of modern science such as Francis Bacon and Robert Boyle and Isaac Newton. So if ID is guilty of idolatry for admiring the contrivances in nature, then I guess all those guys were idolaters – but that is not the general consensus of historians.

So I’m left scratching my head. It seems to me that if anything might border on idolatry, it would be the view of TEs like Van Till, with their conception of a “fully gifted” nature, which, once created at the beginning of time, has the ability to itself create galaxies, stars, planets, atmospheres, oceans, life, multicelled life, vertebrates, mammals, primates, hominids, and man, all by virtue of its own self-possessed powers. Nature in such a view become a Demiurge, a sort of stand-in for God. It would only take the smallest intellectual nudge to kick the original Creator out of the picture (after all, Hawking etc. tell us we can have new universes for free, without a Creator), and go with a wholly self-existent Nature. The Van Till view is thus virtually idolatry in the making. And this brings us back to the title of the discussion, why ID criticizes TE. :smile:

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Suppose for a moment that ID manages to produce the evidence it seems seeks. Does it then become a stand in for God? If yes, we have quantified God. If no, we just disproved God.

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The Biblical authors were not making a scientific claim. We have no expectations for material evidence, repeatability, or falsification. YEC makes claims interpreting Genesis as scientific. ID makes claims that conflate Design with Creation.

Gotta run …

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But they were, in a broad sense. They weren’t of course using the jargon or formal methods of modern science, but they were saying that only God was powerful enough to raise the dead, part the Red Sea, calm the storm, etc. They were making a comparison (even a “mathematically quantifying” one, in a crude sense) between the capacity of “natural” and of “supernatural” causes to make certain changes in the world. God was seen as acting directly in the realm of efficient causes, and was seen as, so to speak, the only hypothesis that could explain the observed facts.

And – and here I’m speaking about TEs, not about you, unless you are going to defend their position – it’s a massive inconsistency for TEs to say that ID is “bad theology” for drawing God down into the realm of efficient causes when it comes to fine-tuning, creating a flagellum, or creating man, but TE is good theology for drawing God down into the realm of efficient causes when it comes to miracle stories about Israel or the early Church. If drawing God down into the realm of efficient causes wrongly limits God, or “reduces” him to something less than God, then all religions which affirm miracles do that anyway, whether they affirm ID or not.

A theological decision has to be made: Is God wholly transcendent, to the point where he never interacts with his creation on the plane of efficient causes? Or does God sometimes “dirty his hands” (as some TEs seem to think of it) by actually acting in and on the world? The moment TEs allow even one exception to absolute transcendence, e.g., even if they say they accept only the Resurrection and no other Biblical miracles, they have introduced God as an explanatory cause of a physical event, and then they are in no position to chide ID people for doing the same.

You seem to be arguing that both ID and creationism offer bad theology on this point, but you exempt TE. Yet TE, and in fact all mainline historical Christianity (and Judaism, and Islam), talk about God in exactly the bad way you identify as typical of ID and creationism. So if you are to be consistent, you must say that Christianity itself, theistic religion itself, dishonors God by dragging him down into the realm of efficient causes. The only religion you would approve of, then, would be something like pantheism. And that’s fine – you have a right to defend pantheism if you like. But don’t pretend that you can attack ID and creationism for involving God directly in nature, and spare the rest of Christianity from the same criticism.

I await your explanation of your odd use of the term “idolatry.”

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Of course “ID theory” isn’t based on the Bible. It doesn’t exist in any scientific sense!

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@Eddie

Nothing in the Bible supports the idea that God’s operations can be scientifically verified. God is bigger than science.

Not “scientifically,” in the precise modern sense, but certainly “empirically.” The Biblical writers treat virtually every miracle story as confirmation of the existence of God. And in fact, the Mt. Carmel episode seems to be almost an ancient equivalent of a scientific experiment; a hypothesis is tested, as it were.

Perhaps you Unitarians need to spend a bit less time philosophically speculating and a bit more time actually reading the Bible.

If empirically meant scientifically, @Eddie, there would be fewer atheists.

The only purpose for asserting that Science can detect God are the political goals for those want the state to teach religion.

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Your answer is non-responsive to my statements regarding the Bible. Apparently what the Bible has to say does not matter to you. With that attitude, you are not likely to convince many Christians to drastically alter their view of Adam, Eve, and the Fall in order to accommodate evolution.

HINT: The term “empirically confirmed” does not mean “a second or third hand account written in a book”. Do you think the novel King Kong is empirical evidence of a giant gorilla climbing the Empire State building?

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@nwrickert
@Patrick

Note that I spoke of what the Biblical writers thought, not of what modern Biblical readers must necessarily conclude.

No one is under the obligation to accept the events described in Biblical stories as accurate history, but George was arguing that it is wrong, from a Christian point of view, to regard God’s activity as something for which there might be evidence. My point was that the Biblical writers did in fact think that events in the world could provide evidence of, even proof of, the existence of God, and more specifically, that the true God was the God of Israel.

Of course, George, being a Unitarian, is not concerned about what the Biblical writers thought. He can (and does) brush aside their conception of God and the world. But that puts him in a very awkward position to be telling Christians that they are truer to their faith if they adopt evolution and change their theology regarding Adam and Eve. Why should any Bible-believing Christian alter his theology or his views on evolution on the recommendation of a Unitarian who denies that the Bible is God’s inspired word? George’s rhetorical position is completely untenable, given the audience he is trying to persuade.

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Your statement about me contradicts your other statements about me.

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I can accept they were expressing themselves in the only way they knew, but they cannot have understood the scientific method in any modern sense, even broadly. I could go on, but this is a post-mortem pony…

And I might - but not tonight! :slight_smile:

I haven’t forgotten, just busy. I might leave this one for Joel Anderson to explain when he gets here, as he is the person I got this understanding from. Prior to discussion with Joel, I referred to this as mockery.

Well, Newton was one of the founders of modern science, and he thought that God’s wise contrivance was evident in the works of nature. I imagine the Biblical writers of the Psalms, Isaiah, Genesis, Job, etc. used essentially the same reasoning, only without the rigor of mathematical modelling. As for the miracle stories, they bring God into the picture as a causal hypothesis, and there is even the “experiment” on Mt. Carmel whereby one God is falsified and another verified. Did the Hebrew writers mean all this as “science” in our modern narrow sense? No, of course not. But the reasoning is not different in kind (however lacking it may be in precision and method) from that used by scientists. There is an appeal to evidence, a judgment about whether a given cause is adequate to explain a phenomenon, etc. That’s all that I meant, not that the writers of the Bible invented modern science – current or even Newtonian.

I don’t know who Joel Anderson is, but if has some interesting ideas on these subjects, I will be glad to hear what he has to say. I’m naturally interested in any usage of the word “idolatry” that would be possible to apply to either ID or creationism.

Must go now. Hope you have a pleasant holiday season.

@Eddie

Newton was a discoverer of important laws… but he was also an alchemist.

Alchemy is wrong-headed about Science… and the more I.D. resembles alchemy, the less science it becomes.

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@Eddie,
Christians will accommodate Evolution with Creationism because it makes the most net sense… not because of my personal view on the Bible.