WSJ: Why Atheists Need Faith

That may be, but if Guillen really was an atheist he was a really peculiar one. If indeed he formed up his atheism as a “worldview” grounded on an atheistic “assumption,” then that was what they call “doin’ it wrong.” So he’s basically affirming that he was always a sloppy thinker, but has now shifted from the slop in one trough to the slop in another. The idea of actually thinking this stuff out, on the other hand, appears not to have occurred to him.

Trying, and failing, I should think. But the difficulty here is that this is a question of fact, not feeling. I would feel more joyful if I thought that all the excess weight I’ve put on was improving, rather than diminishing, my health. But whether I would feel more joyful in believing that or not, it would be untrue.

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I understand your points, and looked again, he is addressing them.

He decided he hadn’t thought through his atheism so began considering other alternatives for decades.

Like one of Hermann Hesse’s tormented intellectuals, I set off to explore alternatives—beginning with Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism. This turned into a decades-long intellectual-spiritual journey. Ultimately I became a Christian

He explains that every fact begins with assumptions.

Even reason itself—the vaunted foundation of atheism—depends on faith. Every logical argument begins with premises that are assumed to be true. Euclid’s geometry, the epitome of logical reasoning, is based on no fewer than 33 axiomatic, unprovable articles of faith.

Only so much you can write in a short op-ed…

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He should live and let live. I can only speak for myself but I am a lifelong atheist initially because I found the theism presented to me as a young person distinctly unappealing. Also I’m very happy in my own skin and feel no need or desire to embellish my physical existence with a religious dimension. The universe I inhabit is no less wonderful for being incomprehensible. If your religious beliefs work for you that’s fine. I have no need of them.

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Well, yes, but that’s what I was saying: he hadn’t “done” arriving at atheism well, and was a sloppy thinker. Nothing in this piece suggests an improvement in his quality of work on this. And having witnessed “seekers” and watched them seek for decades, I can personally attest that nothing about the duration of the search provides any assurance of quality.

Surely one CAN be an atheist for terrible reasons. And if one is, one is perhaps likelier to then go on to be something other than an atheist. But he assumes, I think, that others are atheists for reasons which are as poor as his own. He ignores the possibility that others may simply be a bit better at this.

Sure, and the Huxley quote above answers that, I think, better than I could, so here it is again:

It is quite true that the ground of every one of our actions, and the validity of all our reasonings, rest upon the great act of faith, which leads us to take the experience of the past as a safe guide in our dealings with the present and the future. From the nature of ratiocination, it is obvious that the axioms, on which it is based, cannot be demonstrated by ratiocination. It is also a trite observation that, in the business of life, we constantly take the most serious action upon evidence of an utterly insufficient character. But it is surely plain that faith is not necessarily entitled to dispense with ratiocination because ratiocination cannot dispense with faith as a starting-point; and that because we are often obliged, by the pressure of events, to act on very bad evidence, it does not follow that it is proper to act on such evidence when the pressure is absent.

I might add that there are also “assumptions” involved in such things as the belief that sense impressions correspond in some way to some external reality, and that none of us are free from these assumptions because we are utterly adrift without them. But experience does seem to bear these assumptions out. Our sense impressions are at least non-randomly related to aspects of external reality. But beyond these trivial types of assumptions, and the type of “faith” in the value of experience of which Huxley speaks, no others are essential in any way to atheism.

Speaking only for myself, I come from a background where theism is more or less assumed and the only question is what, precisely, the nature of the divine is. My assumptions, as I began to ask these questions, were certainly heavily prejudiced in favor of theistic belief. But I think it would be asinine to mirror Guillen and parade around and act as though my atheism is more credible on that account. Far too many people try to re-write their own “quests” in those terms, asserting that you can really be sure of just how right they are because they started out believing something else. Balderdash. One either deals well with the evidence, or does not; whether one started out as a Methodist, Episcopalian, Baalist, Frugivore or Monetarist doesn’t really matter.

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Atheism isn’t a conclusion, it is an opinion. You can never prove that there isn’t a God. But the absence of evidence makes it highly unlikely that God exist. So atheists like to say “there likely isn’t a God, go enjoy your life”.

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Well, I don’t think I would say opinions aren’t conclusions. Certainly one can never prove there aren’t any gods, so I am an agnostic. But there’s no competent and credible evidence of any of the gods, which persuades me there are none, so I am an atheist. Knowledge: agnostic; belief: atheist. “Conclusion” to me carries no connotation of proof, certainty or finality.

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This subject has come up on other threads, but I don’t know if you have answered it. What do you personally consider to be competent and credible evidence of the divine?

As I’ve enjoyed delving into science in the last year and a half, the intricacies of life and the universe explained by science are beginning to be stronger evidence for me. I think about the perhaps billions of steps in the process of my children’s growth before I gave birth to them, as well as the impossibly complicated papers I read, knowing that there’s millions of discoveries yet to be made by the most complex creatures in the universe, us humans, and the “natural” seems as much or far more miraculous than any supernatural event.

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Has anyone attempted to put this probability calculation to paper or is the asserted lack of probability just a swag?

To go anywhere at all in life you have to assume, implicitly, that reason works, and that there is a consistent external world. You don’t have to assume magical beings inhabit or created that world, or that they are making reason work.

The End.

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My atheism is a conclusion - I have concluded that the claims and arguments of theists are untenable, and that none of the gods they refer to are real*.

*A few do exist, but don’t have the power ascribed to them.

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Ahh! please show me those orgy bars.

I think this would be based on an informal estimation of the likelihood, rather than a formal calculation.

Would you consider the existence of unicorns likely? Would you think you would need to “put this probability calculation to paper” in order to venture an opinion?

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How do you define “magical being” as you are using it here?

What if a Unicorn was defined as a Being capable of creating a universe? How do we explain what we are living in without a Unicorn?

What’s to explain?

We are living in a universe. Whether or not that universe was created doesn’t alter that we are living there.

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What if a Unicorn were defined as a bowl of peonies? Can you explain why a Unicorn is a pretty table ornament? :slight_smile:

I would explain that this bizarre redefinition of “Unicorn” places it outside the ambit of my statement, and refuse to address this new topic further. :face_with_monocle:

I would further suggest that it is a ‘red herring’ designed to deflect conversation rather than address my original point. I would then notice who I am speaking to, and state a complete lack of surprise at this outcome. :sunglasses:

Alternatively, I could define the Universe as a curve in the M4 outside Bristol, and thus claim that Unicorns have little to do with “what we are living in”. :smiley:

Then it would be excruciatingly obvious that you are avoiding the question, and no-one need bother responding to yours.

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Thanks for joining the discussion, @MikeG !

When I was an atheist, a scientific monk sleeping three hours a day and spending the rest of my time immersed in studying the universe, my worldview rested on the core axiom that seeing is believing. When I learned that 95% of the cosmos is invisible, consisting of “dark matter” and “dark energy,” names for things we don’t understand, that core assumption became untenable.

The thinking here is just very confused. We know that dark energy/matter exists because it can be measured by empirical, physical means. That we do not yet understand exactly what it is does not provide license to believe in immaterial supernatural beings and forces whose existence cannot be so demonstrated.

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What I am showing is @Tim is using a false equivelence as an argument. @Rumraket is using a labeling fallacy as an argument.

I wonder if there is a coherent argument for atheism given the evidence of the capability and wonder of the universe we live in.

Is it possible that this universe exists without intelligent creation behind it? I don’t see any logical thought process that gets you there given the evidence…

It appears @nwrickert is advocating that there is no need for an explanation. Similar to Entropy and TSZ’s brute fact argument. This seems like a personal preference as many humans are seekers of answers to big questions.

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You have shown no such thing. I was merely demonstrating that a formal probability calculation on paper was not required, not asserting that there is some equivalence between unicorns and your purely hypothetical “Being capable of creating a universe”. No equivalence means no false equivalence.

What evidence?

Again, what evidence?

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For me, the big questions are the “How?” questions, not the “Why?” questions.

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