Correct, it isn’t. Slavery remains immoral, regardless of whether one hates or likes one’s slaves.
You disagree?
And I didn’t claim you did. Read again.
I know what I said. It was this.
Well you’re the one calling for legal protection for guys like this. You’re the one insisting that white supremacists and other bigots should have a legally protected right to hate speech.
You have just confirmed this. Where did I say that you thought there should be no legal repercussions for endorsing the killing of gays?
As I read your initial comment, I thought your point was that, by agreeing that the Sheriff should be fired, I was somehow contradicting my position in defense of the Constitutionial right to freedom of expression.
My apologies if I misunderstood
No I wasn’t. I thought you were being entirely consistent, I just disagreed with you. Sorry for not making that clearer.
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Telling someone that they are engaging in immoral behavior is pretty serious in my book, and not akin to merely holding a different philosophy. As a mature person, I would take it very seriously myself, and not consider it as a “difference of opinion” without any serious import.
Saying something is a “sin” in your religion is not quite the same, and would depend on what you/the religion meant by it. But if it means that the person cannot participate equally in the religion under their sexual orientation, I guess it comes down to the same thing ultimately.
In my understanding there are gay Christians, so I guess there are ways of working this out. And maybe there are other mutually acceptable possibilities–I’m not directly involved on either side here, and wouldn’t want to be on one side at least 
But I think you seriously underestimate what it means to say someone is engaging in an “immoral” act and how they might reasonably respond to that.
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I also find it galling how sad and upset @Ashwin_s is over the consequences he imagines might befall some people as a result of the word “homophobia.” Meanwhile, he blithely minimizes the very real, and often deadly, consequences that homosexual people have suffered, and continue to suffer, as a result of his claim that they are “sinful.”
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I think this is very important topic. I seems like much of our public discourse around morality has assumed common understandings of Christianity and Christian ethics. Those assumptions seem to less common, or at least less foundational (I don’t know how “Christian” the U.S. has ever been publicly). Ideas like “sin”, “total depravity”, “common grace”, “sanctification” seem totally foreign to most.
I think Christians working in the intellectual public sphere are going to have to find ways to go beyond arguing what is right and wrong, to what right and wrong even mean from a Christian worldview.
Discussions around the LGBT community are incredibly difficult. It’s not simply an intellectual conversation, it involves real people and something that is very core to their identity. There is also a huge amount of political baggage and adding on top of that the completely horrendous speech and violence that has, at times, been perpetrated in the name of Christianity upon this community, I can see why we’re not very welcome to the conversation of public morality.
Honestly, I don’t know what the way forward is exactly. If we look to what Jesus says in Matthew 22:
“He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
I feel like Christians are often torn between taking what seems to be a moral directive from God (sexual expression being limited to marriage between one man and one woman) and having anything but a superficial love for their LGBT neighbors. How do Christians love their LGBT friends and family if they have a moral disagreement with something that is so integral to their identity?
Like I said, I don’t really have answers. I struggle knowing what to do or say.
P.S. I’ve found this thread to be mostly unhelpful. Maybe we can find a better way here at Peaceful Science to discuss some of these issues (not that PS has to discuss every topic as @gbrooks9 points out)
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That’s easy.
Accept that LGBTQ people have the same rights as everyone else to live their lives as they wish. The rest of the world doesn’t want, need, or care about your Christian “morality.”
Just get over it.
Well, that’s pretty illustrative. Because that model of “sexual expression” is rejected by the vast majority of heterosexual people in our society. Yet we don’t the Christians complaining about this nearly as much as they do about homosexuals.
Interesting.
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Not the same thing. AHA is a private organization with a code of ethics and the rights to fire the doctor for violating code of ethics. Regarding the TN Deputy Sheriff, it is the US Constitution which has been violated.
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Yep, nailed it. Somehow when they can put themselves in as the subjects that are affected and constrained by their own nature (heterosexual lust between consenting adults), the religiously prescribed morality is much less important to them.
Yes yes, the Bible does strictly say that adultery is immoral too, but it’s not that important to me when the girl next door is so fucking hot!
“Boys will be boys” and all that.
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Yep. This has always been rather black and white to me. No matter what some may think about homosexuality, safety from discrimination and being able to marry whoever you damn well please (if it’s consensual, of course) should be basic human rights.
And if you don’t like homosexuality… well, no one’s forcing you to marry the person of the same sex.
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Hmm. I’m not sure what you are saying here. I agree with the Sheriff being fired and that, as a public employee, he likely violated the Establishment Clause. Is that what you are referring to?
I am making a distinction between a private employer and a government employee.
OK, but I don’t see how that contradicts what I’ve been writing.
This is what this “pastor” apparently said according to cnn:
“God has instilled the power of civil government to send the police in 2019 out to the LGBT freaks and arrest them and have a trial for them, and if they are convicted, then they are to be put to death,” he said in the clip
So first off, i agree, the man can believe what he wants to. It is his choice. On the other hand, as far as Christianity is concerned, this man does not vocalize a biblical perspective. The Bible in the new covenant times does not warrant any govt killing adult consenting individuals practicing a sexually immoral lifestyle. So if the true church has anything to say about the matter, it would say that this man does not represent the church and should not be considered a true pastor, teacher.
As far as his position in govt as a sheriff deputy is concerned, such calling for consenting adults choosing this lifestyle to be put to death is inciting violence and hatred against such people and is not justifiable in the country in which we live. In cases like rape and child molestation, that is a whole other thing all together. But his language spoken to people about other adults practicing this lifestyle is of the sort that is not acceptable in govt service.
If you asked me if two consenting heterosexual or homosexual adults involved in a sexually immoral lifestyle were allowed to join a church that abides by scriptures since Jesus’ died on the cross for the sins of the world and ushered in a new covenant, the answer would be undeniably categorically negatory.
This topic gives me pause about the fabric of our nations laws. Our nation of America is built upon a Christian ethic. Even the division of power in our Govt as well as freedom of the press is of a Christian ideal in that mankind this side of the fall are sinners by nature and choice and division of power in America keeps the sin nature at bay from imposing unethical political power at the detriment of a nation and for personal gain. Jefferson feared that a democracy without a Christian ethic and behaviors would cause it to fail. I agree. Ultimately, America is not my home, but i sure feel sad on behalf of my childrens welfare to see this nation consist of more who want to dismantle Christian ethic which i believe is the glue that has made America such a good model for the rest of the world to follow.
In your opinion. He obviously disagrees.
I didn’t ask, but thanks for sharing another of your personal opinions. Most Christians disagree with you on that.
I have no comment on the historically and legally inaccurate claims you make in the rest of your post, though @Patrick might want to have a say.
If “Christian” is defined by apostolic authority as reported in the NT, then any person who disagrees, is most definately not Christian in the truest essence. God may have saved folks who are weak in their faith and ignorant of Biblical realities. But as far as the Christian ideal is concerned, sexual immorality is not a permissible behavior that is acceptable for membership in ths church.
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“If.” But it usually isn’t, so…
Our Nation is not built upon a Christian ethic. That is a myth. Read Andrew Seidel’s new book:
Do “In God We Trust,” the Declaration of Independence, and other historical “evidence” prove that America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles? Are the Ten Commandments the basis for American law? A constitutional attorney dives into the debate about religion’s role in America’s founding.
In today’s contentious political climate, understanding religion’s role in American government is more important than ever. Christian nationalists assert that our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, and advocate an agenda based on this popular historical claim. But is this belief true? The Founding Myth answers the question once and for all. Andrew L. Seidel, a constitutional attorney at the Freedom from Religion Foundation, builds his case point by point, comparing the Ten Commandments to the Constitution and contrasting biblical doctrine with America’s founding philosophy, showing that the Bible contradicts the Declaration of Independence’s central tenets. Thoroughly researched, this persuasively argued and fascinating book proves that America was not built on the Bible and that Christian nationalism is, in fact, un-American.
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