I agree that they have the same rights as other citizens, and I don’t expect non-Christians to care about Christian morality. Not everything is a right though, so it’s not always clear cut and society has to find common ground.
Actually, the Christians I’ve talked to generally (though not always consistently) put pre-marital sexual relationships and homosexuality in the same moral category, either acceptable or unacceptable. Many conservative Christians would more consistently put extra-marital affairs in the same moral category as homosexuality. I get that the political discussion gives a much different view, but that that is my every-day experience talking with Evangelicals.
I think there can be a couple potential complications, especially around the idea of discrimination (and how it’s defined):
we already limit who can marry who to some (minor) extent (age of consent, polygamy, near relationships, are the ones that come to mind) so it’s not “people can marry whoever they want”. Society has developed those limitations.
many Christians worry that religious freedoms will be “interfered with”. There is a huge range of seriousness to those worries, some are easily dismissed as faux-persecution but others would make a significant impacts.
For instance, some Christian universities are concerned that Title IX changes may tie federal student aid to LGBT accommodation. These schools are generally fine with LGBT students enrolling, but do ban sexual activity outside of traditionally-defined marriages and often are more likely to have gender-specific housing.
Another example might be pastors or other spiritual-care workers who fear that discussions of sexual ethics within a religious context would be considered hate-speech or something. I’m not talk about people like Westboro Baptist or this TN Deputy Sheriff, that’s clearly unacceptable.
I know it does seem black and white to many, but it isn’t to me so I will continue to try to truly listen to LGBT friends and family, consistently condemn violence or threats of violence, and try to seek a proper understanding of Christian theology and ethics in this area.
America is not the church. So the ingredients about America will obviously not be completely similar to how a church is to be run. But America definately is built upon Christian values as our founders were either nominal Christians, true born again Christians, or diests who borrowed the practical parts of Scripture fitting of govt or politics. To prove this point, observe how atheism within communist USSR concocts govt. Or how the Islamic faith formulates a govt structure etc.
That was mostly because it is a bit more separate issue. Divorce is, indeed, one of the least consistent – although I still find most people I know to be fairly consistent there too.
How can it be separated for anyone who uses the formulation, “sexual expression being limited to marriage between one man and one woman”? Isn’t divorce a crystal-clear violation of that?
What I mean is, there are some who might allow for homosexual marriage, but not divorce. I was focusing on what happened up to marriage, not the circumstances under which one got out of it.
Nope. I view you and the YECs as culture warriors, and as (temporarily) in bed together, for the sake of opposing Eddie. And actually, it’s you who is doing the climbing into bed, since Greg didn’t ask for your help.
I don’t doubt that. But I can’t remember the last time I heard of a parade of Christians protesting for laws banning adultery, or denying couples who ever had premarital sex the right to adopt children etc.
Right. And those limitations should apply equally to all. Allowing same sex marriage removed an aspect of marital laws that discriminated on the basis of sex.
Sure. And schools or churches that had rules around the mixing of people of different races had the same problem when anti-segregation laws arrived. Change can be difficult for some people. But it can be worked out.
You don’t often hear about organizations enforcing racial segregation anymore. Maybe you think that is a really sad thing, and our society is now less free and tolerant than it once was as a result of that. I see things a bit differently.
…even if you’ve lived in India, where Christians are not the majority and have much smaller political power, because such examples are not only part of history, including Indian history with events such as the Goan inquisition, but also available on the internet for anyone who is looking, especially for those who frequent discussion boards such as this one, where people such as Patrick regularly highlight such incidents.
Hi John, Sorry for the late reply.
I think you are making this statement only because you have not interacted much with people from other cultures (or perhaps not thought much about what they believe). I am engaging in deeply immoral/disturbing and even reprehensible behavior as per many cultures. let me give you examples -
Many Jains and hindus view eating non vegetarian food is wrong. In fact there are sects in Jainism which go to extreme lengths to ensure they don’t hurt any other living being. I am a non vegetarian.
For many Hindus, eating beef is a sacrilege. They view it as a terrible wrong. I eat Beef.
For some mulsims, one of the worst thing a person can do is confess that God has a Son. Its a sin guaranteed to take one to hell.I do exactly that as a christian.
For some American liberals, calling sex between the same gender a sin is a deeply immoral act. I call it a sin.
Jains view non-vegetarianism (or any kind of killing) as strict no. Now i love non-veg food… eat it every day. I would not expect Jains to accept me as a practitioner of their religion without giving up this habit. No matter how difficult/impossible it is for me. And i wouldn’t call it prejudice or discrimination. I definitely wouldn’t expect them to change their religion to accept my lifestyle. I respect them too much to do that.
Christian sexual morality applies to both homosexuals as well as heterosexuals. If someone who claims to be christian is addicted to sex and indulges in a lifestyle that involves sex outside marriage, the church has every right to correct such a person and restrict their membership rights/privileges. Why not the same for practicing homosexuals?
Its possible for there to be gay Christians. However, the idea/movement to “work this out” are all rooted in American culture more than the bible imo. Its not “Gay christians and sympathisers” Vs “Traditional Chrstians” imo. Its more to do with people who think their individual pleasure/satisfaction is the be all and end all of religion.
One example is a recent resolution which was discussed in the united methodist church to allow the ordination of gay clergy. It was defeated to a large extent due to opposition from the African part of the church.
American Secular liberals (including Christians who lean that way) need to recognize what part of their world view is due to a culture they have adopted. Unfortunately, most of them act as if their cultural views and biases are holier than that of other cultures.
