Bias Against Guillermo Gonzalez (Privileged Planet)?

I don’t fail to understand it. I understand perfectly well why science teachers teach the mainstream of scientific thinking first, and the refinements later. I’m not questioning that approach. But even in high school science our teachers sometimes informed us where there was more than one view held by scientists, where there was some debate in a field. My undergraduate professors in science did so, too.

I’m not arguing that ninth-grade biology should be a place where students debate the latest refinements of evolutionary theory. But it certainly wouldn’t be out of place for a ninth-grade science teacher, back around 1970 or so when the Haeckel diagrams could still be found in most textbooks, to teach students that in science, evidence matters, and that faking evidence is unacceptable, and that the Haeckel embryo drawings were faked, and that the particular formulation of “ontogeny reveals phylogeny” pushed by Haeckel was not sustained by the actual embryological data available to him. A ninth-grade science student could understand that without any advanced mathematical knowledge of genetics, etc.

More generally, it’s pedagogically wrong to use science class only to teach the current conclusions of science; it’s just as important to teach the students the methods of science, and the ethics of science.

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Oh, in the abstract, in a contrafactual universe where scientific theorizing took place within complete metaphysical neutrality and was never influenced by reigning (and as Glipsnort has pointed out, often unconscious) cultural or professional biases, that statement would be fine with me; but in the actual practice of origin-of-life research, “we do not know how life originated” means “we do not know by which set of unguided chance combinations life originated.” It tacitly excludes the design alternative – which is intellectually dishonest. The way I formulated the question, the design alternative is restored as a possibility, which is better epistemology, and also forces the scientists to own up publicly to possibilities they find personally distasteful and would like to discount, but might nonetheless be true.

Yes, some teachers will broaden the discussion beyond the curriculum. The best teachers do this as a way of motivating students.

I personally think this should be allowed, but not dictated by the curriculum.

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No, it doesn’t. I have sometimes said that I cannot rule out an act of god. I’ve heard others say that.

It would be better to say “We cannot rule out an act of god” than to say “We don’t know whether or not life could have originated without design.” Bringing in talk of design only adds confusion.

Do you know of any origin of life researcher who has said that as anything beyond a pro forma statement? I.e., do you know of any who actually regard that as a serious possibility, as opposed to an abstract one that need not be given more than five seconds’ thought? My impression is that the majority of scientists engaged in origin of life research are somewhere between atheist and agnostic, and temperamentally materialist and reductionist.

I find it less confusing than talk of God. :smile:

In light of the exact wording of the Kansas document that you quote, could your point be more precisely stated like this?:

AFAIK, few evolutionary biologists regard the extrapolation from microevolution to macroevolution as “controversial”?

Anyhow, the distinction between microevolution and macroevolution in itself does not come from creationism, and the propriety of simply extending microevolution to arrive at macroevolution has been questioned by non-creationists. Dobzhansky, one of the great 20th-century evolutionary theorists, said that it was only “reluctantly” that he treated one as simply an extension of the other (as if he thought there was room for doubt).

A lengthy discussion of the history of the terminology, which I’ve only skimmed, and don’t necessarily endorse, but which looks as if it might be helpful, is found here:

Yes, the phrase “irreducibly complex” does seem to indicate that the Kansas legislators have been reading some ID material. Still, if you take away that phrase, there is nothing in the sentence that might not be found elsewhere, in non-ID material. I don’t think that “structuralists” like Stuart Newman, for example, think that new body plans are created by a million little incremental changes of the type that make a moth’s color darker or a giraffe’s neck longer; I think they would argue that other, higher-level mechanisms are in play when there are major diversifications of bodily form. I’m not up on the details, but that’s what I gather a “structuralist” would say; a “functionalist” or “adaptationist”, on the other hand, tends to think of macroevolution as just microevolution, only continued longer. The ID folks are generally critical of the adaptationists on this point (and on lots of other points), but are more open to the “structuralists”; Denton in particular seems to like the work of Newman and Gunter Wagner.

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Having them say that is a useless as having them say "We don’t know whether or not life could have originated without VOODOO MAGIC!.”

Science doesn’t have to include every unsupported crackpot idea just because the crackpots whine loudly, and it doesn’t run an affirmative action program for woo. Produce some positive evidence for Intelligent Design first then you can argue.

I was not talking about this at all. The conversation has now shifted to whether it is justified that the DI has such a bad reputation that even associating with it is bad for any scientist. My response is that it is justified, because of the actions that the DI has done or supported regarding K-12 science education.

Well, it had a difficult public relations task ahead of it and it mostly failed. Now it still is going on but only Christians who are already sympathetic to ID listen to them.

I think there is a strong case for pointing out the inability of natural selection to explain everything in evolution - as people have said, this is 1960s biology. But if you look at the educational materials being proposed in Kansas (e.g. a Critical Analysis of Evolution), it’s a critical analysis of evolution. Not a critical analysis of natural selection. A high schooler’s take away from that would be “evolution is flawed”, not “natural selection is flawed, we have to also take into account neutral evolution”.

OK, thanks for informing me about this. That being said, I think am right that the way the Kansas board has phrased that is something few evolutionary theorists would in an evolution textbook. On the other hand, creationists who read that would instantly know that it is referring to the creationist argument that “all evidence for evolution is only evidence for microevolution”. It’s basically a creationist dog-whistle. If this was not the DI’s intent, they should have been more careful to phrase it so as not to be construed in that way.

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I agree with you that some of the statements in the Kansas document are likely to be confusing. I certainly would have written the document differently. However, one must remember that all such documents are productions of committees, and hence compromises between the ideas of various parties. I imagine that the Kansas legislators were not merely taking dictation from the Discovery Institute, but were also listening to the voices of a strong YEC lobby in their State.

It is perhaps somewhat ironical that the document would have been clearer and less ambiguous if they had hired Mike Behe to write it. You wouldn’t have found Behe confusing “evidence for common descent” with “evidence for saltational as opposed to gradual mechanisms.” In fact, if Behe had written it, it would have been more in accord with standard science. Behe’s disagreement with evolutionary biologists is over subtler matters, not over the basic idea of evolution.

Anyway, as I’ve said before, the real cause of the battle over evolution in the schools is that evolution is taught in the ninth grade, where biology is compulsory. Move the evolution unit, which is only two or three weeks long, up to a higher grade level, where biology is optional rather than compulsory, and the battle over science in the schools would be over. 90% of the parents who are opposed to teaching evolution in the schools would drop their opposition to evolution in the schools if their kids weren’t forced to learn it in ninth grade. And the teaching of evolution would actually improve, since evolution could be taught with much more sophistication in a higher grade, after students have done not only ninth-grade cell biology and genetics, but more chemistry and mathematics in between.

The other point, as Jay313 on BioLogos has pointed out, is that no treatment of evolution, no matter who writes the curriculum, will be any good without properly trained science teachers. Currently, across the USA, the variation in training among high school science teachers is shocking. Often the science courses, except the most senior courses, are taught by people with almost no knowledge of science, or by people whose training was in a different area of science from the subject of the course. Ninth-grade biology is often taught by people who are not biology majors, and might well have been (at best) Physics or Chemistry majors, or (at worst) Phys.Ed. or Psychology majors. This is actually my main criticism of Discovery’s science policy – that it’s absurd to think a ninth-grade science teacher who has trouble following a semi-popular article on comparative genomics in Scientific American could lead a sophisticated discussion on the difference between the views of Shapiro and Dawkins regarding evolutionary mechanism. Science classes in the USA, especially ninth-grade biology classes, aren’t staffed by people like Stephen Meyer, Joshua Swamidass, Francis Collins, etc. All you have to do to ascertain this is to read the statements of the high school science teachers in Dover. And there are thousands of teachers like that across the nation, doing ninth-grade biology.

In countries with more sophisticated (and better funded) educational systems, countries such as Australia, Canada, Britain, and other European countries, high school science teachers almost all have real Bachelor of Science degrees, in Physics, Chemistry, or Biology, not degrees in semi-science or obliquely science subjects such as Psychology or Phys.Ed., and usually have their major in the particular subject they are teaching. In light of this, the overhaul of the teacher-training and course-assignment system is much more important to the improvement of American science education than what happens in a two-week or three-week long unit on evolution in ninth-grade biology. Yet Americans consume far more time, energy, and money fighting about those two or three weeks than they do to address the much greater structural problems with their school system. If America is falling behind the other countries of the world in science education, it’s not because the phrase “irreducible complexity” is found in the science standards of one State; it’s because the requirements to be a high school science teacher are too low, because high schools (in science and other areas) are badly underfunded, and because the differences in quality of education from school to school are vast, due to the regressive American social system for funding education. Blaming ID or creationism for this massive social neglect is absurd.

Future historians, commenting on how the American educational system eventually fell behind that of Paraguay and Indonesia, will marvel at the fact that Americans spent no time addressing the fundamental structural problems of the schools, while continuing to battle about creation versus evolution throughout the first half of the 21st century.

If the conversation has shifted to that, I’m not the one who engineered the shift. :slight_smile:

It is a typical distraction in these debates to shift the question from: “Is there evidence for design in nature?” to “Did the Discovery Institute behave well or badly in its actions regarding X?” The case for intelligent design in nature doesn’t depend on the assessment of the political or social behavior of any of the players involved.

You know, the Young Earth Creationists are the loudest champions of the doctrine of Creation, but I think they have sometimes behaved very badly on the academic and social fronts; so should I give up the doctrine of Creation because YEC mismanages the defense of that doctrine? Even if Discovery is guilty of a thousand social and political blunders, that doesn’t affect the theoretical question whether or not there is design in nature.

So if Gonzalez writes a book arguing for cosmic fine tuning for intelligent life, that book should be assessed on its arguments, not on whether its author has friends in the Discovery Institute. To say, “I don’t even have to read Gonzalez’s book to know that it’s wrong, because it’s supported by the Discovery Institute,” is to argue in an unscientific and unscholarly way. If Gonzalez’s arguments for design in the cosmos are flawed, then let people point out those flaws – specific statements on specific pages – and show where the error lies. Did any of the Iowa State faculty who thought Gonzalez’s book was rubbish actually read it? Has T. aquaticus, who seems to be sure that the book is rubbish, actually read it?

I suspect that the reasoning employed by these people is exhausted by this syllogism:

Premise 1: The Discovery Institute has produced some bad arguments.
Premise 2: Guillermo Gonzalez is on friendly terms with the Discovery Institute.
Conclusion: Guilllermo Gonzalez’s arguments are all bad. (So we don’t need to bother reading the book.)

The conclusion doesn’t follow from the premises, particularly from Premise 1; there is no logical inference from “some” to “all” in this situation. (Or for that matter, even from “all” to “all”, since someone associated with someone else who makes all bad arguments might himself still make a good one.)

The bottom line is that no one should say that Gonzalez’s arguments for design in the cosmos have been refuted until he has read those arguments. What Discovery does or says has nothing to do with the matter. It was Gonzalez, not the Discovery Institute, that was up for tenure at Iowa State. The only thing on the minds of the professors there should have been the work of Gonzalez, not any alleged involvement of Discovery in the Kansas science standards or anything else.

But we’re not talking about the scientific case for ID. We’re talking about whether scientists are tolerant, specifically as shown in the way Gonzalez was treated. And my opinion is simply: scientists are just behaving like other humans in that they are affected by social and political forces, and they were understandably wary of groups like the DI.

You’re hoping that scientists are going to behave as purely dispassionate, rational actors, which is unrealistic. Philosophers and theologians are not free from this either. In fact, I would be more trusting of scientists to give my fringe ideas a fair hearing compared to many other types of people. In this case, I imagine that scientists were wary of whether creationists or sympathizers to ID would start to use Gonzalez’ position as a tenured professor to try even harder to sneak in ID and creationism into the classroom. They would have to answer to the public as to why they decided to give someone like this tenure.

Tenure isn’t primarily about assessing whether somebody’s ideas are correct. That should have been determined beforehand by publishing those ideas in peer-reviewed papers, for example. Most of the departmental faculty evaluating a tenure case aren’t even from that sub-field. Rather, tenure is more like deciding whether this is someone the department wants to keep forever. Research is one important component. But personality and politics plays a role too, and understandably so.

Imagine if someone was otherwise a solid scientist, but also a Holocaust denier. They publish a 1,000-page book arguing that the Holocaust did not happen. They put the university’s name in their biography on the book cover. Does a tenure committee have an obligation to go through that book and refute every argument before they are justified in denying tenure to that person? Can you really say, “Even if Holocaust deniers are guilty of a thousand social and political blunders, that doesn’t affect the theoretical question of whether the Holocaust happened?” After all, one might even argue that scientists have no expertise on the topic of the Holocaust. But clearly there are limits to pure rational, scientific, evaluation. The DI is nowhere near as bad as Holocaust deniers. But they do have a deservedly bad reputation among scientists.

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I’m unaware of any people capable of producing science good enough to get tenure, who are also Holocaust deniers. If I were on a tenure committee, and such a person was up for tenure, I suppose I would have to think more seriously about that issue at that time.

Certainly I can’t think of any cases where any scholar good enough to earn tenure in a reputable History department has produced any books arguing against the existence of the Holocaust. The kind of disjointed thought processes that produce Holocaust denial tend to produce bad academic work overall, and I can’t see how anyone who really believed that the Holocaust never happened could ever rise to achieve a Ph.D. in any Humanities field, at any serious university, and therefore I wouldn’t expect such a tenure case to come up in a History department. Maybe it could, in a science department, because it is possible to be a very good scientist while having little to no training in history, philosophy, literature, etc., and because by the nature of science education, it would be quite possible for a Holocaust denier to work through undergrad or grad programs without anyone ever knowing or asking for his political views. So a tenure committee in science could conceivably be caught by surprise by a guy who was good at sequencing genomes but mentally and emotionally off-kilter in his private life. But I don’t think it would happen very often, even in science.

And even then, I think the proper response of a department would not be to say, “We are going to deny you tenure because we find your views on the Holocaust loathsome”. I think the proper response of the department would be to learn how the book on the Holocaust was received in academic circles. If the universal judgment of academic reviewers of the book was that it was not only bad in its scholarship but actually academically dishonest, e.g., deliberately misusing or suppressing historical sources, then the tenure committee could quite reasonably infer that the author, willing to be academically dishonest in History when it suited his purpose, might one day produce academically dishonest science when it suited his purpose, and deny him tenure on that ground. I don’t think there is anything wrong with denying tenure to someone of bad academic character (as opposed to denying tenure to someone because they hold to a minority view).

But that’s exactly the kind of “political” reasoning that I think should have no place in university hiring or tenure decisions. The decision should be based on scientific merit, teaching ability, performance of departmental duties, and, to some extent, on whether the person has a tolerable personality (if he is an egomaniac, or ultra-sarcastic and belittling in his communication style, and rubs everyone the wrong way, it’s understandable why a department wouldn’t want to give the guy a job for life), not on how journalists, political activists, etc. might try to use the appointment for political ends. It’s precisely the perception that university professors are supposedly above such base considerations in their decision-making that the public has respected them; the moment they become “political” like everybody else in society, the public will lose its respect for them.

But of course, “the public” that I’m concerned about is not “the public” that the Administration or Faculty at Iowa State was concerned about. The only “public” the President and Faculty at Iowa State were concerned about was the body of elite scientists across America whose approval they needed to move Iowa State from being just another state university to being a top-tier research place (which they stated as their current ambition and game plan); and not giving tenure to someone associated with ID was the right signal to send to that “public.” On the other hand, the real public – the man on the street, who isn’t driven by academic ambition or schemes to make his institution important and influential – wouldn’t have objected at all to an ID-supporting astronomer being hired at Iowa State. In fact, the man on the street would have thought it would provide some intellectual balance in the department, given that it’s almost certainly 90% staffed by atheists and agnostics now. To the man on the street, such intellectual balance in a tax-paid State institution (where well over 50% of the taxpayers believe in a designing God) would be very much in the public interest. But the perception of “public interest” is very different to one sitting in a marble-floored office surrounded by an academic elite.

Well I think that’s where you and I differ. Universities are public institutions too: they have to answer to the academic community and the general public. Christian colleges, for example, regularly refuse to hire people who are engulfed in personal moral scandals, even if it has no effect on their scholarship. There are plenty of hypothetical situations where giving tenure to someone who is politically extreme will result in a net loss for the university. Less people might be willing to donate. Young, bright, politically conscious graduate students might prefer to go to other universities.

The person being political here is Gonzalez, by associating himself with a politically controversial entity. He basically forced the university to choose between ID or mainstream science. If Iowa State was acting politically, who is respected more by the public now? Iowa State or the Discovery Institute?

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Hi Eddie,

I came across this as the most recent topic and must express my amazement at the number of words you have written relative to the amount of evidence you have. I’m a biologist, not an astrophysicist, but let me address your misunderstandings (hopefully not misrepresentations) of how tenure works in the hard sciences.

I would submit that ANY book, regardless of content, written while one is a tenure-track assistant professor is cause for concern for the tenure committee, more so if the candidate is marginal.

Carl Sagan is not a control. Others in that ISU department, both awarded and rejected for tenure, are. Why aren’t you looking more deeply into those controls?

I don’t think they would have told him anything. Freedom of speech and all that…

For Sagan, the publications from his postdoc wouldn’t have counted. Why are you counting them for Gonzalez?

You write so many pages, but don’t seem to want to acknowledge the most important standard of all: that the candidate successfully made the transition from being mentored to being a mentor. Mitigating this is, I suspect, the likelihood that it is a much more severe transition in the sciences than it is in the humanities. That is why his postdoc papers aren’t important and his papers as corresponding author are of tantamount importance. Can you at least acknowledge the relevance of this?

Perhaps… you could compare and contrast his record with those of others in the same department who were granted or denied tenure. That would, I suspect, use far less of your time than you have spent writing in this forum.

Don’t you think that Gonzalez and the DI lawyers have already done so?

All I can say is that you aren’t looking at publicly-available controls. Why? Do you think that such evidence might change your current view?

Do you mean his citation index for papers before he came to ISU, after, or both? His corresponding author papers would provide the relevant index.

To address your suspicions, wouldn’t it be more appropriate to look up present and past junior faculty in the Astronomy Department at ISU?

That number doesn’t matter to a tenure committee. Only the ones he published at ISU as corresponding author would matter. What is that number? Why do you keep citing the irrelevant number of 68?

ANY book writing would be a negative factor unless his productivity as an independent scientist was off the charts, which it wasn’t.

Actually, they wouldn’t necessarily, he’d be listed at his previous institution and have an asterisk by his name with the footnote: Present address: Dept of Astronomy ISU. And it’s not about ISU receiving credit at all.

Nothing is wrong with it, it just doesn’t show Gonzalez establishing himself as an independent researcher, the primary concern of the tenure committee (which you can’t seem to bring yourself to acknowledge).

It’s all substance. It’s the metric by which tenure committees judge whether he has made the transition from being mentored to being a mentor.

I can’t tell if you don’t see this, or are just refusing to acknowledge it by conflating it with the silliness of which university gets credit for a publication.

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I agree with you here @alwallace.

@Eddie, for reference, take a look at this professor at WUSTL that has not even been granted tenure yet. How do you compare their CV’s?

https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=2_XMQ_oAAAAJ&hl=en

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I’m curious about your evidentiary basis for claiming that this is an “ancient internal discussion paper” and not a policy document withheld from the general public.

I don’t see anything suggesting that it is not a finalized document except for the execrable font choices in some headings. :grin:

Are you associated with the DI?

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He is an ID sympathetic scholar who is anonymous. He also finds their information arguments to be in error, so don’t assume to much with him: IDist Disbelieves Their Information Arguments.

I think he is primarily concerned about fair play, and is very longwinded about it.

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Well, we can discuss hypothetical situations, but Gonzalez’s view that the cosmos is designed is hardly a “politically extreme” view. In fact, it’s a mainstream view, held by probably the majority of Americans.

By the way, regarding extreme views, one of the leading figures in linguistics for many years was the Jewish thinker Noam Chomsky. He later became embroiled in a controversy over a French scholar named Faurisson who had denied that gas chambers existed. Faurisson was convicted of hate crime under French law. Chomsky defended, not Faurisson’s view of the gas chambers, but his right to publish his views without civil penalty. He argued that the most important time to defend freedom of speech is in the case of the most unpopular views.

I can’t say for sure what Chomsky would have said about denying tenure to, say, a chemist for denying the Holocaust, but I suspect he would have thought it was a dangerous precedent for a university to behave in that way, particularly if the only reason for the tenure decision was that Holocaust denial was considered loathsome by most citizens. Of course, if the Holocaust denier submitted his arguments to a History department for tenure, I’m sure Chomsky would not object if tenure was denied on the grounds that the arguments were bad. But that is different from denying tenure because the conclusions were loathsome.

Especially pro-evolutionists should think hard about such indirect censorship (shutting people up not by making their speech illegal, but by denying them a career in their field if their speech is deemed loathsome), since at the Scopes trial the issue was whether a school science textbook had the right to present a teaching (about the origin of man) that the majority of people in Tennessee at the time found loathsome.

Of course, the university was traditionally understood to be a place of freedom of speech, and therefore of all places should be the one to defend the right of scholars and scientists to present unpopular views. Cutting mavericks adrift in a lifeboat, in order to further the ambitions of an Administration, is not the way to make that defense.

You may not have seen the additions to the bottom of my post above; I think you replied as I was adding them. Have a look. Anyhow, while it’s quite obvious that universities feel a need to answer to other academics, it’s not at all clear that they feel they have to answer to “the general public”. If a tax-funded state university honestly thought it had to answer to the desires and opinions and values of “the general public” it would make sure that the range of beliefs among its faculty members corresponded roughly to the range of beliefs among the general public. But state universities make no such effort; in fact, their faculty is far more leftist, feminist, irreligious, pro-illegal immigration, etc. than the general public, and while they are often known to bend over backwards to make sure that people of color, women, homosexuals, etc. are represented on the faculty in something approximating their fraction of the general population, they have never made any similar effort to make sure that Christians, social conservatives, political conservatives, etc. are represented on the faculty in similar proportions. Yet this sort of balanced representation is what the general public wants to see in the universities that it pays for. But increasingly, modern academics have contempt for the views, values, and attitudes of the general public.

An absurd charge, pure fantasy. Gonzalez had no power to force Iowa State to do anything. He was an untenured professor, with no pressure at all to exert on his employer. And he did not challenge “mainstream science” in any of his 68 peer-reviewed papers. He asked his peers to evaluate those 68 papers, as mainstream science. The only place where he could have been said to challenge mainstream science was in a popular book he wrote – and we have been informed here that books aren’t relevant to the evaluation of a scientist’s merit, only peer-reviewed articles. In no way would a verdict of tenure have implied that Iowa State agreed with his popular book or that the Astronomy faculty personally or professionally endorsed intelligent design. The verdict would have implied only that his peer-reviewed scientific work was up to snuff.

I mentioned Noam Chomsky above. He was known for taking controversial positions on a whole range of academic issues, and doubtless many of his colleagues at MIT often chose to dissociate themselves as scholars and scientists from Chomsky’s personal views. But so what? MIT never had any problem drawing lots of excellent students, even with Chomsky shooting off his mouth. Really good schools, schools that are secure about their own merits, don’t live in fear, and don’t have to discipline their maverick members. It’s only on-the-make, pipsqueak schools that fancy they want to be top-tier players, that are so insecure about the possible disapproval of their evaluators, that they worry about trivial, passing moments of public embarrassment interfering with their plans. I wouldn’t study at the latter sort of school, I wouldn’t sent my kids there, and I wouldn’t give a penny in donations to such a school, not even if I were an alumnus.

I disrespect spinelessness, whether it occurs in academic or any other guise. I think universities should risk losing a few students, or a few big donors, or prestige in politically correct quarters, by standing up for diversity of thought, even thought that is not accepted by the majority of faculty. Any place where that is not done, is not in my view a real university, but a self-interested collective masquerading as one.

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Speaking of fantasy, you keep citing the number 68 as though it is relevant to his tenure decision.

His papers as a postdoc qualified him for a junior faculty position. His papers as a corresponding author are what qualifies him for a senior faculty position. Being mentored vs. mentoring others, an enormous difference that is much greater than it is in the humanities.

It’s THE primary metric, yet you can’t seem to acknowledge it. Why?

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Exactly right. But also beside the point.

Why are we litigating this?

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