Can God be a useful "scientific" hypothesis? Yes

Obviously. When you’re not changing the function, no mutations are required at all. So yes obviously to get a protein to perform a function it could not previously will require at least one mutations. But mutations do happen regardless of whether they are required to produce functional shifts or not. Proteins drift around in sequence space through neutral mutations to varying degrees. This is pretty much unavoidable.

We agree that mutation is required to get a protein to do something it could not before(*). We do not agree that it is generally the case that 3 or more specific ones with no other alternatives being possible, are required.

Fine with me, that is now your definition of a “new binding site”. A protein that bind a molecule it could not bind before. Do you happen to know of any such examples? And even better still, do you happen to have references that substantiate your still unsupported belief that such functional shifts generally require 3 or more specific mutations with no other such mutational combinations being possible?

No. It’s still binding the same molecules, only weaker.

A promoter sequence is a molecule of DNA. A new promoter is a different molecule. Changing preference of a DNA binding transcription factor for one promoter sequence to another is a change in binding site for that protein transcription factor.

No, you are ignoring the sentence that immediately follows. Please understand that you are confusing the number of steps separating the extant descendant SEQUENCE and the very distant reconstructed ancestor SEQUENCE with the number of steps it generally takes to evolve the descendant FUNCTION from the function of the ancestor.

As they say, there are multiple such functional shifts that require only one or two mutations. Look at Extended Data Figure 5:

The ancestral sequence is the one in the middle of fig 5(a). The blue circles are the ones with the ancestral function, and the green circles are the sequences with the new functions. From the ancestral sequence, one out of seven sequences reached with a single mutation has the new function. 1 in 7 result in a functional shift, the other are viable pathways for the protein to drift among. Which it then probably did.

Notice another thing. In that paper they are only testing all possible L=4 variants in the DNA binding domain of the protein. But many other residues in the protein are also likely to affect it’s binding preferences(as is also stated in the introduction and discussion).

The ancestral RH (EGKA) and derived RH (GSKV) can access many SRE-specific outcomes by short paths in AncSR1+11P.

a , Concentric rings contain RH genotypes of minimum path length 1, 2, or 3 steps from AncSR1+11P:EGKA (center). The historical outcome (GSKV, boxed, bottom) is accessible through a three-step path (EGKA – GGKA – GGKV – GSKV). Alternative SRE-specific outcomes accessible in three or fewer steps are in green. Lines connect genotypes separated by a single nonsynonymous nucleotide mutation; lines among genotypes in the outer ring are not shown for clarity. Orange arrows indicate paths of significantly increasing SRE mean fluorescence. b , For trajectories indicated by orange arrows in ( a ), SRE mean fluorescence is shown versus mutational distance from AncSR1+11P:EGKA (with x-axis jitter to avoid overplotting). Gray lines connect variants separated by single-nucleotide mutations. Error bars, 90% confidence intervals. Green dashed line, activity of AncSR1+11P:GSKV on SRE. c , For the SRE-specific outcomes accessed in orange paths in ( a ), the probability of each outcome under models where the probability of taking a step depends on the relative increase in SRE mean fluorescence (correlated fixation model), or where any SRE-enhancing step is equally likely (equal fixation model)8. d , The historical outcome (GSKV) has SRE-specific single-mutant neighbors. Concentric rings contain SRE-specific RH genotypes of path length 1 or 2 steps from AncSR1+11P:GSKV (center). Lines connect genotypes separated by a single nonsynonymous nucleotide mutation; lines among genotypes in the outer ring are not shown for clarity. e , The distribution of SRE mean fluorescence of SRE-specific neighbors of AncSR1+11P:GSKV illustrated in ( d ). Error bars, 90% confidence intervals.

Pick any particular blue or green circle on Fig 5 (a) and see that many of them have multiple 1-mutation functional shifts available to them. One of the neighbors to the ancestor has 5 out of 14, meaning that over a third of viable mutants from that sequence result in a shift in function with 1 mutation. Another has 2 out of 6, again implying roughly a third of 1 amino-acid substitution mutants result in a functional shift.

Read for comprehension. Understand that evolution wasn’t searching for a specific target sequence. Nor even a target function. Rather mutations just come and go over time as proteins drift around through fitness-neutral pathways, and among mutants that come and go are some with functional consequences that get to stick around if they positively affect fitness, until they themselves in turn are replaced with other neutral variants, or even better mutants.

(*) Just a small caveat. Some proteins can perform functions they normally cannot simply by changing the physical conditions around them. Well-known examples are so-called hot-start DNA polymerases(or some enzymes used by hyperthermophiles in general are some times inactive under mesophilic conditions) used in PCR which require increased temperature to activate. It is entirely possible many proteins with known functions have other functions we don’t know about that could be brought about by changing things like water activity, pH, temperature, and so on, without requiring any changes to the protein’s amino acid sequence.

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For only a 4-amino acid portion of the entire protein’s length. The functional effect of mutations on the entire rest of the protein sequence was not tested. They only tested the effects of mutants on that 4 residue portion.

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You are exasperating. There is no “if” here, we actually saw it happen and happen quite readily.

Yes its “just” promoters that evolved, but they evolved from nonfunctional, random DNA sequences in approximately two weeks. We got to see the creation of new promoters de novo and through rearrangement of preexisting promoters and that tells you its quite easy to evolve new functions or at least some types of new functions. This contrasts with the unrealistic high improbability arguments you keep throwing about here.

On the contrary to the the claim in your comment, this is what was observed in the study:

In other words, a vast majority of the ERE-specific variants could achieve their evolution to SRE-specificity by taking the shortest paths possible, with some doing so in one step which is two counts shorter than the historical outcome (which happened in three steps). Thus, even if there were more inaccessible outcomes (there weren’t) due to the number of required steps, it would be irrelevant as the shortest steps possible would be picked more often relative to those longer steps as shown in the paper.

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Well, I am waiting for confirmation from @Jordan that what I am presenting is scientific since he is the most knowledgeable on the subject given his background on quantum physics and theism. Once he gives the thumbs up, I will create another topic devoted solely to common design.

Then, I think we just disagree here. A woolly mammoth is just another kind of elephant under my common design model not an entirely separate species.

I would say Yes, but not in the way you are suggesting. In regards to current observations, the purpose is to edit and limit the amount of errors the cell makes in maintaining existing function within different environments rather than genetically engineering new function like God would have done in the past.

Because it’s outside the purview of the hypothesis and this topic.

No, it’s just life.

That’s because your knowledge on the subject of quantum biology is probably lacking, which is why I am waiting for @Jordan to respond.

For instance, random mixtures of polymers or granite are examples of complex structures generated, but they are not specified. Crystals are typically understood as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules held together in a uniform way. However, neither crystals nor polymer mixtures qualify as living organisms because they do not possess both information forms simultaneously found in DNA, leading to “specified complexity” (Orgel 1973).

Crick (1958), who was one of the first to elucidate the information properties of the DNA molecule, explained this meaning of information in biological terms in 1958 as “the specification of the amino acid sequence in protein. … the precise determination of sequence, either of bases in the nucleic acid or of amino acid residues in the protein.” Shortly thereafter, leading molecular biologists defined biological information to incorporate this notion of specificity of function and complexity (Sakar 1996).

In other words, the fundamental difference between life and non-life is digital information or specified complexity according to Crick.

I find the patience of the other posters in this thread nothing short of astonishing.

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I expect you will not get any such confirmation.

You’re claiming that all elephants are one species? I’m afraid that no species concept will stretch that far, no matter how ambiguous you think they are. Your ignorance of basic biology betrays you.

In what way, then? Can’t you at least try to make your point clear?

That’s almost entirely meaningless. If I can extract a little bit of meaning, you claim that God causes every mutation by tries to limit their number somehow, even though he’s the cause and could just stop making them, and he is no longer introducing new functions. But what to make of recently evolved functions, then? Are they products of Satan?

In that case you should not express an opinion on the subject. And you shouldn’t equate your God with the God of classical theism.

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OK, I dug a little bit more into Orch-OR and while I can see where you’re going better, I think a significant issue is that your hypothesis that consciousness impacts mutation seems more like conjecture built on a hypothesis that’s built on one-of-several competing theories. Orch-OR is a hypothesis with major relevant problems (decoherence would be an enormous problem in biochemically relevant conditions) built on objective-collapse theory which is an extension/competitor to quantum mechanics. But no objective-collapse theory has been experimentally verified, so whether objective-collapse is “true” is an open question. But the biggest problem with this “arm” of your hypothesis is that extending from Orch-OR (consciousness as a quantum phenomenon) to “consciousness could be responsible for many/most/all mutations” is pretty much just conjecture. My opinion is that this moves the hypothesis out of the realm of science into science-grounded philosophy. I would put Orch-OR in that category as well.

But how would you rule out other minds? Just because the experiment designer doesn’t “assist” doesn’t mean another mind couldn’t, right? How can you control that variable?

I honestly don’t know how “there could not be any conscious life before simple life emerged” is significant.

These are actually quite different. I think you should think about that for a while.

@Meerkat_SK5 , at this point I think I’ve given your hypothesis as much as I can for a bit. I think I understand what your hypothesis is a lot better and it’s a stimulating idea. I would consider it an interesting “what if?” but I’m afraid I still wouldn’t consider it a scientific hypothesis (falsifiable, testable, making predictive claims, etc.)

Well, duh. I proposing something that challenges mainstream biology in the form of common design just like Albert Einstein did with general relativity.

This is what he is doing right now:

"Our observations suggest that the mutation rate has been evolutionarily optimized to reduce the risk of deleterious mutations. Current knowledge of factors influencing the mutation rate—including transcription-coupled repair and context-dependent mutagenesis— do not explain these observations, indicating that additional mechanisms must be involved.

Evidence of non-random mutation rates suggests an evolutionary risk management strategy | Nature

And read this to find out how:

Scientists Identify Fleeting Quantum Jitters that Drive Mutation Rate in DNA (genengnews.com)

However, although I would say he is creating new function, he is not creating new function or information that is needed to produce a genome, which would disprove my hypothesis because evolution has to explain how the four-dimensional genome, with multiple overlapping codes and chock full of meta-information, came about. My hypothesis does this.

Your right. It was the wrong classification.

No, you’re supposed to compare yourself to Galileo, or occasionally to Newton (thinking of you, Bill Dembski); that’s the standard bit of megalomania. And so far you haven’t proposed anything clearly enough to compare to anything any scientist has done. What does “common design” even mean?

So he is and is not creating new function??

Sorry, your hypothesis does nothing. You haven’t even managed to state your hypothesis.

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Wow…

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Remind us, then: how frequently, in the course of laying out general relativity, did Einstein make basic errors in physics which a clever high-school student wouldn’t have made? While I can’t remember the number, I do think it might be a curvy single digit.

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Great, so natural (purifying) selection is God. From the paper:

Sorry to disappoint you, this discovery and the findings in the other paper have nothing to say about each other. Its just you citing what you don’t understand.

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Not even close, because general relativity makes actual empirical predictions. You can’t seem to grasp how those work.

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I am not sure why this is relevant. I made it very clear at the start of this topic that I was going to show how "we can test whether a Divine intelligence has and continues to guide evolution, which would make this an improvement of the Modern synthesis rather than a separate explanation. However, this time it will NOT be about trying to prove that God guided evolution or prove God exists at all. "

The criticisms raised on their theory have all been adequately addressed in their 2014 peer-reviewed article that was published in the highly prestigious article. It is highly unlikely that such a high impact journal like Physics of life reviews would publish their article if those objections were fatal or relevant.

For instance, although there are fraudulent articles that can and do get passed peer-review even in highly prestigious journals, Physics of life review has a special feature where additional experts can make up to 5 replies each after an article is published in which the editor informally reads those comments. In this particular case, the editor extended it to 7 replies from various outside sources and experts in which Penrose and Hammeroff adequately addressed all with replies of their own.

I say “adequately” because the editor informally peer-reviews it himself. They also have been bringing their theory in front of skeptics in conferences to be scrutinized even more. I have already gave you the source that verifies all this. In fact, here is a recent review article on their work that does not suggest there is a criticism or objection they failed to adequately address:

"Undoubtedly, the Orch-OR theory co-established by theoretical physicist Penrose and neuroscientist Hameroff is currently the most convincing theory. Even more exciting, with the emergence of new drugs, new research methods, and new quantum technologies, this theory is constantly being enriched and perfected. Especially in the research of anesthesiology (96-100), memory (71), cognition (42,101-103), neural synchrony (104) and vision (49), mounting results and evidence indicated the Orch-OR theory could be self-explanatory and could be invoked to many different conscious backgrounds. More recently, Li et al. found that xenon’s (one kind of anesthetic) nuclear spin could impair its own anesthetic power, which involves a neural quantum process (105).

Thus, the quantum theory of consciousness is increasingly gaining more supporters. With the dedication of these supporters, the quantum theory of consciousness will be gradually completed and will be able to explain the hard problem systematically and comprehensively. As the enigmatic riddle of consciousness has remained intractable, we need more theories and hypotheses to attract enough attention and maintain lively debate. This conflict is the only way for human beings to explore the truth. Since there is no conclusive scientific mechanism of consciousness, as one of the most systemic and convincing theories among various theories of consciousness, the Orch-OR theory deserves our deeper understanding and study."

Do you know of a new peer-reviewed objection of their article after 2019 that they failed to address?

And this is irrelevant to my efforts and my overall case for a number of different reasons, but I will just address the rest of what you said instead.

Again, I am showing how we can test whether or not consciousness impacts mutations NOT prove that it did. So the only thing that matters is whether it is a testable conjecture at least in principle, which is the whole point of this topic.

So I hope you turn your opinion into an actual objection that I can actually respond to next time.

By using Miller-Urey type experiments to test a variety of possible pre-biotic conditions in nature according to my methods outlined.

This is because it would show how a possible condition could have created or developed life before the existence of ANY finite conscious agents. For example, as Kaufman (1995) suggested, “there is no central directing agency” that is necessary for life nor are there irreducibly complex living systems, such as RNA and DNA sequences. Rather, the physico-chemical laws of nature could eventually produce digital information without a mind. So even if there was advanced life before us that created or guided life on earth, this experiment would apply to those conscious agents as well.

I am not following you here. Who are these other ghostly minds that you speak of? LOL

Again, if you don’t have a coherent objection I can dissect and properly respond to, then I have no choice but to take it as a concession on your part and will just move on to the next topic, which will be a common design model.

Did I mention that I am astonished at the patience others have shown? I think I did. I am also astonished at how poorly it is appreciated.

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NO, I am very appreciated and never suggested anything less than grateful. FYI, I have been frequently making changes based on those critics and have made an effort to respond to everybody I possibly can. Where did I ever dismiss an objection out of hand?

It’s just as bad when you ignore them or dismiss them with irrelevancies and gibberish.

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There is an important lesson you learn when you do actual science that it is very easy to answer the wrong question or different question than the one you thought you were asking. You have to ruthlessly make sure that the experiment tests what you think it tests. I am simply trying to help you explore that more because it seems to me that it could be an issue here. A couple silly examples might be:

Hypothesis: all cars are red
Test: watch airplanes taking of at an airport and record their color

This hypothesis is not falsifiable with this test. The hypothesis is falsifiable, but you have to do the right experiment. That’s one reason falsifiability is not a sufficient condition for “good science”.

Hypothesis: red cars are the best cars
Test: watch they highway and record how many cars of various colors go by

This hypothesis is not falsifiable despite a better test because “best car” has not yet been defined and there is an implicit assumption that the most popular car is the best car and well, that’s not actually the question we’re asking.

Hypothesis: red cars make better time machines
Test: measure the average acceleration of cars of different colors and see if red cars will get to 88 mph faster

The test is easy, but the connection to the hypothesis is dependent on a particular unsubstantiated element. Even if red cars do get to 88 mph faster than any other color, that only helps under a particular version of time machine, which has not yet been verified to be applicable. This hypothesis is not falsifiable, not because the test is bad or not falsifiable, but because the result of the test doesn’t necessarily mean anything for the hypothesis in general.

You are missing the point. It isn’t that Orch-OR has been proven false (fatal objections), it’s that it hasn’t been showed to be correct (there are competing theories and as of yet no experimental way to distinguish between them). It could be right, but it could also be wrong, so if the test of a hypothesis built on top of it comes back false, you don’t know if it is falsifying your hypothesis or the theory that your hypothesis is built on. You could also be right for the wrong reason. This makes it very difficult to falsify your hypothesis.

BTW, I do know how peer-review works, no need to explain it or how science journals work.

That may be, but until we know one way or another we have to be careful building hypothesis on top of it and as I pointed out above, it severely limits the falsifiability of testing of such hypotheses.

That’s not how science works. It’s not a courtroom or a wedding, lack of objection doesn’t make it true.

And I am trying to help you see that you are not yet there, which is my point. I started by trying to understand your hypothesis, in good faith, and then I was trying to help you refine it into something I felt, as a scientist, that was testable. I have no inherent objection to your hypothesis, it would be a fascinating idea if true. But in science you spend a lot of time tearing apart your ideas (often with the help of other scientists who are experts in the field) and the reason is that it is often difficult to make sure you are accounting for all the possibilities and have narrowed the experiment to test the precise question you’re asking.

If the Miller-Urey type experiments show that there are pre-biotic conditions that can produce “lifelike molecules” that only falsifies “there are no pre-biotic conditions that can produce lifelike molecules”, that’s it.

Well, as a Christian I’d say God, but you’re the one positing that minds can mutate DNA. How do we know what minds are around? I’m just pointing out that you are assuming that the experimenter is the only mind around. Since it’s pretty unlikely that humans were around for the beginning of life I’m not sure why you’re trying to test whether the human mind can produce “lifelike molecules”.

  1. “coherent objection”?? that’s a bit of a low blow, considering you asked me to look at it as a scientist :confused:
  2. “concession” is not something for you to assume but for me to offer. I’m not trying to be adversarial here, so “conceding” is an odd word choice. I’m simply doing what I would do with fellow scientists, trying to understand the hypothesis and making sure we put it through the wringer to make sure it’s well formed and testable.
  3. don’t wait on me, I’m done. If you don’t want help, I’m not going to waste my time.
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Just the person I want to talk to. Could you state his hypothesis?

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