Comments on Jeanson Accuses Duff Again

I’m not publishing my objections to his mutation rate calculations yet, but it is just categorically false to say he doesn’t make predictions different than mainstream science. He certainly does.

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We may be crossing purposes on the word “prediction”. I’m using it in the very limited sense of predicting a future discovery. It seems you are using it to refer to calculations of underlying past mutation rate.

Creationists who are adopting this hyper, post-ark speciation have really latched onto the Lamichhaney paper on hybrid speciation in Geospiza finches. But there is actually no small amount of disagreement on their conclusions. If Jeanson were actually familiar with the history of the literature on species limits in Geospiza finches he would know that not everyone agrees this is even a hybrid at all let alone a new species (see McKay and Zink 2014 Biological Reviews 90(3):689-698; Zink and Miranda 2019 Systematic Biology 68(2): 347–357; Zink 2002 Auk 119(3):864-871). This is the problem with Jeanson. He only reveals as much as he’s learned if he can spin it to suit his agenda.

Also, no one is saying that speciation can not occur rapidly and that any single case of rapid speciation is against evolution. There are excellent and unlike the Darwin’s finch case, undisputed examples of rapid speciation (across a single generation) particularly among plants. Jeanson’s claim is that ALL speciation is rapid (< 4,000 years). Clearly this is not the case.

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That first link is the worst excuse for maths I have ever seen from a creationist short of Hovind. Utterly preposterous.

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You completely ignored my point and question. That’s how it went in the debate between you and Jeanson as well.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you give the impression that once speciation occurs slowly, it proves evolution and when it happens quickly, then it will also prove evolution? The explanatory power of a theory is pure zero if it simultaneously explains the opposite events.

Let’s think for a moment however about what Jeanson is claiming. He is saying that there may be NO speciation events between sister taxa beyond a few thousand years. He’s saying that ALL speciation is rapid. We know this is false.

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You are wrong. Common ancestry, the age of the earth and evolution in general do not rest on any one uniform rate of speciation. That simply isn’t part of the body of evidence that lead us to accept that life shares a common ancestry and changes over time and that the earth is old.

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Can you give a scientific explanation as to why this is the case as you claim? Or is it just your subjective opinion?

Jeanson’s real accomplishment here is preying on our own sense of fairness to actually take him seriously when really there is no reason to do so. I’ve fallen for this myself. It is very difficult to resist the temptation to take him seriously because we all have a knee jerk tendency to give everyone a fair hearing. Jeanson really has given no one any reason to do that however any more than a flat earther has earned the privilege of professional scientists to comb over their every online manifesto. It think we need to emphasize that people like Jeanson are science deniers and drive that point home.

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@Toni_Torppa Who is “we” is this context (AiG?), and what it your role? Mildly curious. :slight_smile:

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Do you notice the quote?

And you completely ignored the three papers I cited that show that the conclusions of Lamichhaney for rapid hybrid speciation in Geospiza finches that Jeanson is so enamored by because he believes he can spin it to suit his agenda is an area of considerable debate. There is little evidence that the two parental populations of the supposed species “hybrid” are in fact different species to begin with so therefore really little evidence this constitutes a new species. Ignoring work that doesn’t fit his agenda and then throwing a fit that people don’t read his work is however what Jeanson does.

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So very true. Like for example when Jeanson turns a blind eye to the mountains of research showing the conclusions of his naive brand of young earth creationism are wrong.

I do now. Thanks.

Let’s be clear on something Toni.

ANY speciation is evolution. Whether any particular instance of speciation is considered to occur fast or slowly doesn’t matter.

Are you trying to claim that this scientific journal is spreading false information about biology here? Rapid hybrid speciation in Darwin’s finches | Science

If, as a result of speciation, a new population has fewer different alleles than a strain population, then how is it evolutionary? And I’m referring to evolution as a process that would have evolved people from microbes.

Also Toni it’s not MY claim. I just cited the literature documenting the considerable disagreement on this particular topic of species limits in Geospiza finches. Like Jeanson however it’s apparently convenient for you to ignore that work.

I’m saying the reality of the situation is not cut and dry. There are at least three papers on the rats nest of confusion that is Geospiza finches and the authors of Lamichhaney et al. 2018 are likely wrong in their interpretation of their results. Jeanson is unfamiliar with the field to such a degree he is unaware of the ongoing debate underlying this work and frankly he has no incentive to learn about that debate because it would only get in the way of him usurping this work for his agenda.

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