Comments on The BioLogos Statement on Adam and Eve

Thanks for telling us about the work by Kendall. The first article can be found here:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Popular_Science_Monthly/Volume_28/January_1886/Natural_Heirship:_Or,_All_the_World_Akin

I don’t have access to the second source (Kendall’s book). So I’m just basing this off the above article. It’s an interesting article that perhaps we should discuss in its own thread.

The close kinship of mankind especially in the same nation has an important bearing on one or two points of theology. Since mental and physical tendencies are transmissible by hereditary descent, this kinship gives to the doctrine of natural depravity an awful significance, and shows the causes of taint to our blood to be near us in time instead of being removed altogether away to the beginning of the world…
It is singular that orthodox theologians should overlook this recent pressing source of depravity to dwell on the influence upon us of an original pair living before historical times. It is equally strange that unorthodox ones should deny the existence of depravity communicated from that remote period on the ground of its supposed injustice, when it is undeniable that we are reached by ten thousand impure channels so near at hand.

Later, Kendall brings up the implication on the genealogy of Jesus:

This doctrine of the close kinship of mankind triumphantly establishes, apart from genealogical tables, the fact that Jesus Christ had descendants from King David, but impairs the value of the fact when it is established. David, the King of Israel, flourished above a thousand years before Christ, and left behind him many children. The channels of succession being so numerous, and having their fountain-head so far back, had time before the birth of Christ to branch out in every direction, and could not have missed any genuine Jew in the land, especially if he was of the tribe of Judah.

He also points out that we have kinship with Christ, due to genealogical ancestry:

The evidence seems conclusive that Mary, the mother of Jesus, had several children after the birth of her illustrious First-born. He had brethren and sisters, and if some of these left posterity in the earth, as we may reasonably suppose they did, it is certain that we are the descendants, the children, of Mary, and have a kinship with Christ, much closer physically than we have dared to believe.

In his case the phrase “Son of man” had a unique significance, but the doctrine which has been expounded in this paper shows that it has a real and solemn significance to whomsoever applied. Each of us is “son of man” in the tremendous sense that he is descended from all the people who have posterity remaining, who lived on earth a few centuries ago. Every individual living before Christ who has descendants at all has them in us. We are the offspring of the whole of humanity at that time. Every slave and every lord in the days of Julius Cæsar has contributed to our being, and, looking back to those times, each one may consider himself not the child of a thin, thread-like line of parentage, but child of the race, son of all mankind.

Finally, Kendall uses genealogical science to argue the invalidity of hereditary monarchy.

That is what I got from a quick skimming of the article. (I might come back to it later when I’m less in a hurry.) So yes, he does do the math in a general way, though not as detailed as Rohde.

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@Jonathan_Burke

Ha!

Nobody is affirming a young earth here … in the least!

Who or what gave you THAT idea!!!

Are you going out of your way to try to make Peaceful Science look ridiculous?

He didn’t have the data or the computational power that Rohde had, but there are numerous calculations and figures in his book, which is over 200 pages long.

He also used it to argue powerfully against polygenism, and directly against racism. He argued that people of all ethnic groups were genealogically connected, and that white people descended from black people, which would have shocked a lot of people at the time.

Here’s some more.

  1. “All the world are found akin, not by going so far back as Adam, or even Noah, but within historical times.”, Henry Kendall, “Natural Heirship: Or, All the World Akin,” Popular Science Monthly 28.19 (1886).

  2. “To show the importance of this phase of the situation I may say that in the space of a few generations the blood of every human being is so diverted that there is some strain of it in everyone.This was demonstrated by Kendall in his little work “The Kinship of Man,”, in which he shows that as each man has two parents, and these parents have two each and so on, in the brief space of thirty generations, of 33 1-3 years each, the number of parents would be represented by the enormous total of one billion seventy-four million and some odd persons.”, Illinois General Assembly Senate Vice Committee, Report of the Senate Vice Committee Created under the Authority of the Senate of the Forty-Ninth General Assembly as a Continuation of the Committee Created under the Authority of the Senate of the Forty-Eighth General Assembly, State of Illinois … , 1916.

I didn’t say anyone here was affirming a young earth (though I believe Bill is YEC).

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@Jonathan_Burke

The core exchange is:
We explain how Science can make no special claim against de novo creation of Adam/Eve (in the same way science can make no special claim against the virgin birth of Jesus).

Conversely, YECs accept old earth with Evolution of all the other humans from the Great Ape branch of primates… and they get Romans 5 satisfied.

[quote=“gbrooks9, post:147, topic:5848”]The core exchange is:
We explain how Science can make no special claim against de novo creation of Adam/Eve (in the same way science can make no special claim against the virgin birth of Jesus.[/quote]

Yeah I am good with that, I agree with that. But that is true only if we accept evolution, and universal common descent, and pre-Adamic humans. YECs don’t accept any of those things.

Yes. This requires a radical change in their theology. To accept GAE, they need to make a radical change in their theology.

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The Kendal reference is great and I’m going to add it to the paper. Thanks! I’ve been looking for as many precursors as I can.

As for what you are missing? Quite a lot. Honestly, it is hard to know where to start. The fact that BioLogos has had to modify theie belief statement multiple times, and are still not done, well that should give you a clue.

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@Jonathan_Burke,

We understand that. We are looking to the next generation… and a small group of frustrated YECs who only reject Evolution because they dont want to throw out Romans 5 with the bath water!

You’re welcome. You may be interested to know that he also proposes a version of the “genetic ghost”.

Not really, no.

Sure, Rohde did the core of the scientific work. Rohde’s article, however, doesn’t mention Adam at all. Additionally, theologians normally don’t read journal articles in Nature. And Kendall’s work was done in the late 19th century, and before you mentioned it, I’ve never heard about it in the context of this debate. Digging up an old theological idea, connecting it with updated science, and rewriting it into a paper that situates it in contemporary debate is commonly done. Josh’s work isn’t purely scientific, nor theological - the originality lies in integrating the two, which is what PSCF articles are about.

In any case, I don’t think it’s meaningful to debate about how much originality was in Josh’s work. After all, we’re not arguing about whether Josh deserves some sort of prize. The point is that Josh is the one who has propelled GAE from merely being a reasonable suggestion, occasionally put forward, to one which interacts with the latest biblical, theological, and scientific data and is discussed as a “fifth option” in the debate. And if you’ve read the draft of the upcoming GAE book, he does way more than what Kendall, Opderbeck, or others have done.

(Emphasis mine)

Epistemology is a matter of choice. Epistemology is what determines what are “objective facts” in the first place. Your way of framing the issue is philosophically naive, and unfortunately is common among TE/ECs in the discussion.

To start with, what are facts? Can you give a definition of what that word means?

That’s presupposing an all-encompassing Popperian methodology which is far from being obviously the only choice one can make, and certainly not one which most theologians would make. (To start with, many atheists would completely dispose of the idea of God based on precisely your statement here.) Your statement could be completely reasonable to fellow scientists who commonly adopt that methodology, but it will fall on many deaf ears in the world of theology.

Certainly if your wish is to continue using Biologos’ strategy, that is your choice. Biologos has been around for over a decade and accomplished many things. But Biologos’ approach also has some weaknesses. Some evangelicals feel that a naive, scientistic approach to theology like yours is unsatisfactory. PS is trying to do different things.

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@Jonathan_Burke

We dont need to “apotheosize” Joshua. I think we are satisfied that he has unified multiple threads of thought with sufficient credibility to occupy what has been an “empty spot” in tje frontlines of the pro-Evolution battlefield!

Its only now that observers can see that curious or anxious Creationists are more likely to pick up a GAE brochure before they would pick one at a BioLogos table!!!

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Given that he had no idea what DNA was, the similarity could only be superficial.

Please send any other references you’ve found. That is a legitimate way to help out and I’d very much appreciate it.

Can’t teach stubbornness. Please do send any references you have though. That actually is helpful.

LOL That’s halarious @gbrooks9

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A post was split to a new topic: Helpful Quotes by Burke on Genealogical Science

So @Jonathan_Burke, I want to give this another shot. I may have been a bit too defensive with you, and perhaps you have been too aggressive.

Do you really want to clarify my contribution? If you are up for it, I propose a “reset” and a new thread. I’ll list out the contributions I made, and you can let me know where I missed a precedent. That would be immensely helpful to me, and would hopefully make this less oppositional.

What do you think?

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No creativity needed to embrace evolution like the Catholic Church has and to read Genesis as allegorical.

Like you, he believe the original ancestors would be undetectable.

“His [the ancestor’s] part in the building up of any human fabric rapidly becomes insignificant. Something seems bent on working him out. As it does with his name and memorials—destroying the writing he has left behind, filling up the lettering on his tombstone with moss, wiping out all traces of him from the earth—so it does with himself and all that vitally represents his personality in the persons of his descendants.”, Henry Kendall, The Kinship of Men: An Argument from Pedigrees; Or, Genealogy Viewed as a Science (Cupples and Hurd, 1888), 33-34.

Obviously he didn’t know about DNA, but I suspect he based this idea on Mendel’s work since he uses the Mendelian term “hereditary transmission” (still used today), and speaks of physical characteristics as “transmissible by hereditary descent”. Regardless, the fundamental idea is the same; the ancestor becomes undetectable, a ghost, their physical heritage vanishes.

Sure, that would be fine.

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Well I’m with family a bit this morning (which is a good thing), but I’ll write some more when I get a chance. @Jonathan_Burke there are a couple issues here that I would like to keep separate.

  1. What my contributions are, and precursors to it.

  2. What the right strategy is in light of where things stand.

I want to emphasize that I have been looking around quite a bit for precursors. I’m not ignoring them. Kemp, Davidson, Opderbeck, Kendall (thanks to you!), Rhodes, Coop, and others are all discussed in thee book. If there really is precedent, I want to know so I can cite them. I’m not hiding that at all, but I’ve been scouring the literature for precedence. If you have more, please let me know immediately, as I only have a brief window to make edits to the book now.

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3 posts were merged into an existing topic: Helpful Quotes by Burke on Genealogical Science

But people had integrated the two. People have been integrating the two for a while.

[quote=“dga471, post:152, topic:5848”]
The point is that Josh is the one who has propelled GAE from merely being a reasonable suggestion, occasionally put forward, to one which interacts with the latest biblical, theological, and scientific data and is discussed as a “fifth option” in the debate.[/quote]

I think this is true within a narrow North American theological spectrum. There’s a whole planet out there in which other Christians have been way ahead on this issue for a very long time. This is why GAE wasn’t any surprise to me when I first heard it mentioned on Biologos. What really amazed me was that it took so long to appear there. Remember, North American evangelicals in general are still catching up to nineteenth century theologians on the matter of evolution. Even the original famous “Fundamentalists” were ahead of most North American Christian fundamentalists today.

I didn’t say it wasn’t a matter of choice, I said it shouldn’t be a matter of preference. As I said, you shouldn’t think that you can just arbitrarily choose an epistemology, and then change it from one day to the next, as if every epistemology is equally valid. They aren’t equally valid.

Can you give a definition of what “what” means? I am really not into word games.

I don’t care what choice most theologians would make. I don’t look to most theologians in order to gain information about reality. What would they know?

Sure. Why not? I can’t make them believe in something that’s unfalsifiable. My belief in God is a matter of faith; based on evidence, but ultimately a matter of faith. I don’t claim it’s a scientific fact, or claim that it’s scientifically testable.

Suits me. I am more interested in actual reality than in deaf ears in the world of theology.

This is the strategy which led medieval Christianity ex tenebris lux. It’s the strategy which helped differentiate Christianity from superstition during the most ignorant of times. It’s the strategy which gave us a host of shining stars, such as John Philoponus, Jean Buridan, Roger Bacon, the Oxford Calculators, Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton. It built the Scientific Revolution, and laid the foundation of the Enlightenment (I just realized you might think both of those were shockingly bad ideas).

This is a central thread in historic Christianity. And you dismiss it as “a naive, scientistic approach to theology” (!). I guess you do think the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment were bad thing. How dare Copernicus and Galileo contradict the Holy Church!

Yes indeed it is. Thank you for confirming their approach is not the Biologos approach.

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