Darwin Devolves - Another Huge Advance Against Darwinism and for Intelligent Design

You’re still pushing your human interpretation of it.

So here we reach the infamous impasse. I answered you already and you did not believe me. But we are off-topic anyway.

Back on topic, I refer you to the three things you must overcome as an evolutionist

  1. The reality of the presence of one transcendent in ability, intelligence, and self-sufficiency
  2. The fact that that one called himself God and told us how he did it
  3. The simple ability for the rest of us to disbelieve what you are saying

I simply do not have to believe a thing you are saying and I have manuscripts that pre-date you and your ideas by millennia that back me up. What do you have?

  1. You have not demonstrated the reality of any such transcendent one.
  2. The Bible was written by humans according to the very culture that Genesis came out of.
  3. Your ability to disbelieve is not a reflection of what is true.

They have been overcome.

I have observable facts. You don’t have to believe a thing I am saying because you can look at the facts yourself.

I also don’t see what the age of a manuscript has to do with its accuracy. Can you explain that?

I don’t think arguing against @r_speir’s religious beliefs is helpful. Science is neutral about these things. The bigger objection I have is to how he reads evidence, and how he reads his own interpretation into Scripture. The rest seems to be worse than a red herring. It will just retrench him.

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You do not have facts of evolution. Like I said, Lenski pointed to some pretty cool aspects of life. I think we can all agree with that and mutually be amazed. What we cannot do, and you in specific cannot do, is to jump to the conclusion that the dynamics he found - or I mean - the experiment found, is that evolution is a fact.

Here you have Dr. S agreeing with you about ‘interpretation’. So what more could you ask for?

We have reached our ever present, ever defining, impasse. Good luck with your views. They are far from substantiated, however.

Sure I do. You can read about some of them in this thread:

Evolution is both a fact and a theory. The facts are the data that support the theory.

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@r_speir

What you don’t have is an explanation for why mammalian cows, rhinos and sloths all avoided drowning and burial longer than the greatest marine reptiles that ever existed… when these marine giants should have survived drowning just as well as mammalian whales…

All these large mammals are found in the rock layers only long after every last dinosaur supposedly drowned… including Brontosaurs and massively tall creatures who should have been able to “dance on water-logged the graves” of every cow and zebra in existence.

Further, these mammals don’t leave a trace until smaller versions of themselves suddenly appear (over the heads of the dinos)… and THEN we get the fossils of mammals in the forms we know today.

This fits just one model: the evolutionary model.

And unless you think marsupial moles dug underground all the way to the massive island of Australia, only Evolution can explain these marsupials and closely related cousins who, despite their close genetic relationship, pursue very diverse styles of life: carnivorous marsupial predators and omnivorous marsupial Kangas!

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Yes I do.

It all had to do with a creature’s ability to regulate body temperature. Just put 2 and 2 together. As volcanic ash and gases around the globe darkened the sun during pre-Flood eruptions (perhaps meteorite impacts also contributed), the ambient temperature dropped and so did the mobility of reptiles. What followed was a natural sorting of reptiles and mammals as the Flood kill-off ensued.

@R_speir

“Body temperature regulation”? What you have is a SLOGAN!

Temperature regulation kept millions of mammals from drowning at the same time as giant dinosaurs? Hardly.

And if humans were the main target of God for extermination … they would have had body temperature regulation, but we don’t find ANY human fossils mixed in with the old-school mammals. The Nile Valley should have been chock-full of humans and animals mixed together… and we have no mixing.

Give it up. It’s kind of sad seeing you spin your wheels like this.

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Then why do we find warm blooded birds buried below cold blooded land dwelling dinosaurs? Why do we also see dinosaurs buried below the first fossil evidence of grasses? Are dinosaurs slower than grass?

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Again, you make the mistake of lumping me with YEC’s who believe in catastrophe for the Flood. I don’t need it for my ideas, neither do I see it with the careful sorting that occurred. Rather, I find evidence of a slow, layer by layer burial. Some have called it a benign Flood. I believe most of the planet experienced just that.

@r_speir

I keep trying to give you a little credit.

You reject YEC because of why? Because it doesn’t make sense?

And so you adopt a version that doesn’t make sense with anything … not even the Bible.

Now you are just complaining. What you are really saying is finally, maybe a Flood idea has come forward that does not need evolution, and you are not happy?

How does a benign flood sort igneous rock so that specific ratios of isotopes in those rocks correlate with specific groups of species?

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@r_speir,

Proposing a benign flood (with temperature regulation!!) does not adequately respond to millions of years worth of rock.

Since there isn’t even a prayer that you will change your mind, I suppose we are done here.

Isn’t it amazing how their nests, eggs, burrows, dismembered bodies, dung, discarded teeth and footprints achieved the same differentiation of mobility.

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@Roy,

You are relatively new here?

This is not your typical Evolution site where the YEC’s and the Atheists spend all day spitting at each other.

This is a Christian theological site that is offering a way for Creationists to accept the Evolution of humanity (which is consistent with millions of years of fossils), in exchange for God miraculously creating Adam and Eve.

This is a reasonable scenario in that Trinitarian Christians have already accepted some one-off miracles, like the miraculous birth of Jesus and the miraculous resurrection of him 30+ years later.

Adding 2 more one-off miracles (de novo creation of Adam and Eve) is not much of a sacrifice since science is not equipped to detect miracles of this sort.

And so, now we are left with God, the designer of all things - - but not in the I.D. sense of the meaning… but in the “lower case” i.d. sense of the meaning. Christians already accept God as the designer of all things.

But unlike the I.D. folks… we do not assert that Science must be able to detect God’s work in creation… or that it ever will. @swamidass and I are of the opinion that nothing indicates Science can ever measure or detect who or what is the designer of humans.

So… when I say “God designed Evolution”, or use a phrase like God-guided Evolution, it is not with the expectation that we are going to use I.D. type rhetoric to get Creationism into the schools. That would be foolish.

I say it as a stance in faith … not in a desperate hope that Science will back me up.

I hope this helps you understand how the sides of the debate are structured here.

Every once in a while, Creationists argue with Atheists here about Godless Evolution and how it works. I don’t care how Godless Evolution works… that is not one of the goals here at PeacefulScience.org.

The Flood does not need to do that. Geochronologists are willing to do that all the time. We have already had this discussion. Even if the dates of igneous rock do not ‘fit’ with the specific strata, results can be massaged until they do ‘fit’. At rare times, the geologic column can be expanded to include an organism in an location it was not heretofore assigned to. Those times are rare. Fossils date rock as much as radiometric dating dates rock. We all know this. If we don’t, then we should.

You’ve already been corrected on this common Creationist canard multiple times by multiple people. Why do you keep repeating it?

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I know what canard you are referring to. It is the one where YEC’s are not able to explain the radiometric dates, so they just dismiss them completely. You, however, are remiss in thinking that I believe the same as they. You already know that I do not, because you already know that while I believe those radiometric dates to be very near accurate, they cannot legitimately be used to date fossils.

Where you go wrong is in thinking that ages of fossil beds and igneous rock have anything whatever to do with one another. Rock vomited from the mantle of the earth cannot be used to date young fossils in sedimentary rock.

Simply put, “You cannot use grandma’s age to date the clothes she is wearing.”