David Montgomery: Noah's Flood and the Development of Geology

How does a tranquil flood explain angular unconformities? You ducked out of the last geology thread without answering.


You have a terrible memory. You mean when you posted your picture and I gave a detailed answer and summation like this:

“Conclusion: You have just submitted an almost perfect example of how the Noahic Flood is validated in earth geology.”

?? Is that the one:? You only forget the arguments you lose, apparently.

Thanks for confirming you have no explanation by posting the same evasive non-answer.

I remember you demanded to see evidence of where both the top and bottom layers of an angular unconformity contained fossilized life. You were shown several examples and then you vanished with no answers.


Hi @r_speir - A bare assertion like this–that offers no reasoning from evidence to inference–can scarcely be regarded as an answer. Did you provide that reasoning in your previous post? If not, would you care to do so now?



Are you lazy? Go look it up. It’s all there. I have no idea what the topic was so you will have to go on a hunt to find it.

It’s here: Cordova and Runyon on the fossil record. But that was just a lame attempt at the first unconformity, and then you bailed on further examples. (Incidentally, nonconformities are not the same thing as unconformities.)



What evidence would show that the GC was created by a slow process, in your opinion?

That doesn’t rule out the possibility that canyons also form slowly.

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What evidence does it explain? Can you cite any evidence that requires a recent global flood?

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Many of us have looked up all of the evidence that flood geologists claim to have. I have yet to see any evidence that requires a recent global flood.

The evidence that I found the most enlightening is all of the grand claims that flood geologists made about the Mt. St. Helens lahars. For some reason, they just couldn’t understand how it destroyed their central argument. They were pointing out all of these geological features they claimed supported a recent global flood, but they failed to realize that these features were created by a local flood, not a global flood. They showed that all of the evidence they have been pointing to can be created by a local flood.

On top of that, flood geologists haven’t produced a reliable methodology for dating rocks. They can’t show that any of the features they are pointing to were laid down recently, or at the same time worldwide. They are a one trick pony. They say what the choir wants to hear, and they get applauded for it. As soon as you scrutinize any of their argument it completely crumbles, but they know that their audience will not doubt it and will not scrutinize it, at least not all of them.


I read it over again. I did not bail on anything. I refuse to give an answer to a random accusation floating around in your head. So…either produce something…or let it lie. Short answer: Your accusations are false.

I see you are doing your best to make your case to forum participants.

This is quite helpful; thanks, John.

From this thread you made a particular cogent argument:

[To r_speir] It’s not your rule, and I never said it was. So you now agree that an unconformity with fossils both above and below it must, in your model, have formed during the Flood. How would that work? Remember that the lower sediments must be deposited, then lithified, then tilted, then eroded, and the more sediments must be deposited on that erosional surface, all within the period of active Flood action, 40 days. (The remainder of the Flood year is a slow subsidence of the waters.) By what mechanism is that credible?

I find this logic compelling. In addition, I did not see you make a substantive response, @r_speir.(*) I am willing to consider whatever case you would like to offer, of course.


(*) And I did read the entire thread carefully, so there’s no reason to cast any more insinuations on my character.


Not so. Give me an example like I said. These will be shallow layers and some will doubtless be laid down years before the flood. {Ahh, you know, things did tend to die even before the flood}. Example please

How do you determine which fossil bearing sediments were from before the flood, during the flood, or after the flood? What methods do you use?


If the flood was only a thousand years after the creation of life, how could all those fossiliferous sediments below unconformities have been eroded, deposited, lithified, and tilted in such a short time?

Is there a way to tell which rocks came before the flood? I thought all the fossils were supposed to come from the flood. While it’s true that a moving claim is harder to refute, it also makes you look less intellectually respectable.


it is aDMITTED to being vigoursly debated on this point because people are smarter today and evidence shows other options. i would say its impossible for two or more explanations to be shown by evidence in the field. sO its either someone is doing a poor job or the evidence is very difficult to figure out.
Nothing was observed or is happening today. Options are the only ceiling on how it happened.
It was only created about 4000 years ago within a day or so i say.
there is nothing in the rocks to say when they were knocked about. only that you can see it was not from slow processes. Many clues.

Thats right. there are a few I understand, this is why I see these canyons as very tiny affairs and thus post flood events.

I don’t have to do this. All I have to do is show that your interpretation of the data is not the only viable one. And I have done that in the other thread. I do not care to pursue it any further here or rehash the entire argument.

Answer: because you do not understand geologic processes like you think you do. All of this that you mention is more than possible in a thousand years’ time.

That wasn’t an answer, just an assertion. When I say “How could that happen”, it’s not an answer to say “It could happen”. How is it possible for thousands of feet of erosion and deposition to happen in a thousand years? I realize you think that thousands of feet of erosion and deposition can happen in a single year, but at least that’s with some kind of extreme conditions, i.e. a worldwide flood. No matter how inadequate, that’s at least something. But before the flood you have nothing.


But you haven’t shown it. All you’ve done is claim “Da FLOOD did it!!” and scampered off when asked for your supporting evidence. Meanwhile the examples of angular unconformities with fossils in both halves of the strata demonstrate life has been on the planet for at least 480 MYA. :slightly_smiling_face:

Here’s the example from evograd with Ordovician aged fossils on the bottom and Silurian aged fossils on top.