Did Douglas Axe Disprove Evolution? Spoiler: No

[lee_merrill]

@Mercer

Good grief. It was explained to you clearly. You claimed it was without argument, when the argument was presented–and you quoted it!

Here is my whole response: “But the claim being referenced was this: “I was not ‘pointing to nonreasoning causes’ Lee – because ‘nonreasoning causes’ is irrelevant bullshit.” And I point out that “Reason versus unreason is a false dichotomy.” is not addressing if there are “nonreasoning causes,” these are two different subjects, so where is the argument in the first statement? Where is the evidence? You people, alas, do not think clearly.”

Yes, I quoted what you all said, and again I point out that “Reason versus unreason is a false dichotomy.” is not addressing if there are “nonreasoning causes,” these are two different subjects, so where is the argument in the first statement? Where is the evidence? Please respond to my questions, they show why I say the first statement is without argument.

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

But this was not what Rumraket was pointing to, it was the incorporation of ATP like a nucleotide, to make a larger molecule. Synthesis of RNA is irrelevant.

Still incoherent. I’m trying to help you, and Rumraket did not point to “the incorporation of ATP like a nucleotide.” I don’t even have to check to know that he wouldn’t have written something so incoherent.

Well, here is part of the exchange: “But if “ATP is one of the four RNA nucleotides (the three others being UTP, GTP, and CTP)”, that implies it’s not being turned into ADP / AMP, correct?

Both yes and no. Technically polymers of DNA and RNA contain a phosphodiester bond, which you don’t find in the monomers. However (NMP)n is a commonly used description of polymers of RNA, in that the elongation reaction can be described as:
(NMP)n + NTP → (NMP)n+1 + PPi”

I think that’s actually a “yes”.

And here is the description that started the discussion off, the pertinent statement being: “It’s being used by T7 RNA polymerase to make RNA. ATP is one of the four RNA nucleotides (the three others being UTP, GTP, and CTP).”

So this does certainly appear to be “the incorporation of ATP like a nucleotide.”

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

The challenge was about synthesis of RNA, which is a different topic entirely.

No, it is not.

Well, here is your challenge:

@Mercer

Review the evidence for how RNA is synthesized. Let’s skip transcription initiation. Just write out the chemical equations for incorporation of cytosine, guanine, adenine, and uracil bases in the middle of the transcript. Include the enzyme, the energy sources, and each of the four precursors that are necessary.

How is this relevant to what Rumraket was describing?

@Mercer

@lee_merrill

…like what happens with nucleotides.

Nucleotides are incorporated. You still don’t get it.

But ATP is not one of them, in real RNA synthesis! That is the point I was making.

[lee_merrill]

@Faizal_Ali

@lee_merrill

I also mentioned that psychiatrists do look for unreasoning causes for peoples’ complaints!

I will just mention that, as a psychiatrist, I can confirm that your characterization is wrong, for the reasons others have articulated quite well.

Well, I will repeat what I said prior to this, that psychiatrists keep in mind that their clients’ complaints may have unreasoning causes, I think that’s clearer. I certainly didn’t mean that they start out assuming that said complaints must have unreasoning causes at the outset! That should have been plain, too.

@Faizal_Ali

@lee_merrill

How do I conflate “unreasoning” with “insane”, though? And I’m not saying every thought a person with mental illness has is invalid, I have mentioned people with mental illness knowing how to get to the kitchen just fine.

Exactly. As is often the case, you don’t realize when you have undercut your own argument.

Um, what you just said does not show how I conflate “unreasoning” with “insane”, though. That is the point at issue, and clearing up a misunderstanding of my view does not address it.

@Faizal_Ali

@lee_merrill

But I also appealed to decisions in courts, they will put you in the pokey, or in an asylum, if you say “It was motions of atoms in my brain that made me do it!”

Well which is it? The pokey or the asylum?

Obviously, you are unaware that which place the person ends up is based on whether they are held criminally responsible for their actions. i.e. whether it was actually an act of free will.

But you missed my point! You will end up in one place or the other, with this explanation of your behavior. I wasn’t addressing which place it would actually be.

@Faizal_Ali

For your infomation, such a decision is not based on whether the act was the result of an immaterial soul rather than the brain alone.

But I never said that the judge was trying to decide between these two possibilities! You again miss the point of what I was saying. I was implying that the judge is certainly not going to accept the claim that “my brain atoms made me do it”. This is not an acceptable response in a law court, people are assumed to be agents, if they are sane, and the destination will be the pokey, and if they are not sane, the asylum. I guess I did just address which place it would actually be. But that was not my point in raising this issue.

[lee_merrill]

@John_Harshman

@lee_merrill

You would like some more details?

Yes. Where were you? Were you awake? How long did this sighting go on? What prevented him from attacking you?

And now, how many times have you had close dealings with demons?

I was in bed, as I recall, kind of in the twilight of falling asleep. And if calling on a supernatural person deals with the problem, the problem is arguably supernatural, especially since I saw no way to deal with it on my own, such beings that can do such attacks being quite out of my reckoning.

And the sight was sudden, and didn’t last long, and it wasn’t clear why I was not attacked. I mention the evident attack I experienced as a youngster, as evidence they there are apparently beings that evidently do attack, if the opportunity presents itself.

@John_Harshman

And now, how many times have you had close dealings with demons?

That would take some time to go through, one example, I experienced when I was about 20, continual pressure, which seemed to be external, coming from outside myself, toward intense anger. It was like being in a vat of boiling anger, and it would only take a twitch to give in. This went on basically nonstop, every waking moment for years, maybe even for a decade or so, I kind of lost count. Now anger is usually a secondary emotion, meaning you become angry because X happened. But this was completely disconnected from any known event, as far as I can tell, I wasn’t reacting to anything. It was just pure anger, putting external pressure on me, was what it was like. Looking to Jesus intently and continually (I’m just telling what I did) got me through. Then unaccountably, it stopped.

Round two was this: where I was pounded continually with blasphemous thoughts, again, 24/7, virtually every waking moment, and I would usually be more tired at the end of a weekend than when it started. And again this went on for years, and maybe decades. I mentioned this to my pastor, and he got some people together to pray for me, and I experienced some relief, but then it returned after about a week. I got my brothers to pray as well, and again I experienced some relief, and again the problem returned. I mentioned this to a psychiatrist, and he suggested maybe this was Tourette’s syndrome, but then abandoned this possibility, and did not suggest anything else, or try any treatment. So again! looking to Jesus continually and intently got me through, and again it disappeared, fairly recently, some months ago, without any evident reason.

Now I experience sudden pressure to despise people (alas!), especially people I’m talking to, it’s not like I’m harboring ill will, quite the opposite! I’ve experienced this off and on for years, but it’s ramped up now, but it’s thankfully not continuous. I believe God told me this is demonic, he does communicate! And if you believe in demons, as I certainly do, then belief in God, especially after getting deliverance after calling on him, and help, by looking to him, is not a big step.

So these are some examples, such experiences have been fairly continuous. Story of my life, as they say…

[Giltil (Gilbert Thill)]

@Mercer

@Giltil

Can you give an example ?

contingency/contingence

This doesn’t constitute an example of misuse, not at all. Another one?

@Mercer

@Giltil

Now, the issue was about my misuse of the word « whatever ».

No, @Gisteron clearly stated that that was NOT the issue. Please read before responding.

@Gisteron at 796 found my use of the word « whatever » utterly rude. At 798, eager to address the emotional reaction triggered by this word, I said to him the following : « I didn’t intend to be rude. Please consider that I am not a native English speaker and that I may incorrectly use words that don’t always coincide with what I want to express. I now see that I shouldn’t have used the word « whatever » here, but the word « anyway » instead. » So you’re wrong, my misuse of the word « whatever » was a point at issue in the aforementioned exchanges.

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@Giltil

@Mercer

@Giltil

Can you give an example ?

contingency/contingence

This doesn’t constitute an example of misuse, not at all.

Not to you, obviously. Definitely to others, and in response you simply reiterate your claim.

@Giltil

@Gisteron at 796 found my use of the word « whatever » utterly rude.

False.

@Gisteron

@Giltil

I now see that I shouldn’t have used the word « whatever » here, but the word « anyway » instead.

No, that’s not the problem. What was rude was that, instead of asking to clarify a thing you allege not to understand, or acknowledging an empasse and inviting your interlocutor to move on to something else, you elected to just re-assert the statement as if what ever objection was raised couldn’t possibly have undermined its validity. It was the foul, disrespectful attitude that I found rude, not any foul words you used to express it.

Did you not read that? I think that Gisteron is the only authority on what he found to be rude, no?

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@lee_merrill

I think that’s actually a “yes”.

It’s actually a no to your claim.

@lee_merrill

So this does certainly appear to be “the incorporation of ATP like a nucleotide.”

What the letters A, T, and P stand for, Lee?

@Rumraket

Technically polymers of DNA and RNA contain a phosphodiester bond, which you don’t find in the monomers. However (NMP)n is a commonly used description of polymers of RNA, in that the elongation reaction can be described as:
(NMP)n + NTP → (NMP)n+1 + PPi

In either case it doesn’t matter because whatever your original point was is now completely worthless.

@lee_merrill

Well, here is your challenge:

@Mercer

Review the evidence for how RNA is synthesized. Let’s skip transcription initiation. Just write out the chemical equations for incorporation of cytosine, guanine, adenine, and uracil bases in the middle of the transcript. Include the enzyme, the energy sources, and each of the four precursors that are necessary.

How is this relevant to what Rumraket was describing?

It’s describing the same thing. Why not take the challenge? You’d learn something.

@lee_merrill

But ATP is not one of them, in real RNA synthesis!

You’re claiming that ATP is not involved in any way in RNA synthesis, correct?

[Giltil (Gilbert Thill)]

@Mercer

@Gisteron

@Giltil

I now see that I shouldn’t have used the word « whatever » here, but the word « anyway » instead.

No, that’s not the problem. What was rude was that, instead of asking to clarify a thing you allege not to understand, or acknowledging an empasse and inviting your interlocutor to move on to something else, you elected to just re-assert the statement as if what ever objection was raised couldn’t possibly have undermined its validity. It was the foul, disrespectful attitude that I found rude, not any foul words you used to express it.

Did you not read that? I think that Gisteron is the only authority on what he found to be rude, no?

Houps! This passage by @Gisteron escaped my attention. Sorry for that. You were right on this one.