Tim
(Dog All-nighty (temporary joke aimed at Dan))
1065
This anecdote, even if true, does nothing to demonstrate that you have any understanding of how journals work from the editorial side, or how journals garner attention, are evaluated for quality, etc.
Have you served as a peer-reviewer for a paper Lee, let alone as an editor for a journal, let alone as a member of its editorial board? No? Then your personal experience is irrelevant to what we are discussing.
I present to you Lee’s own words, that I was replying to:
That statement strongly implies (falsely) that there were people claiming it was.
The reason it lacks citations is not because it’s new (it’s not), but because it is a crap journal, with a crap editorial board, and accepting crappy papers from their creationist/other-anti-evolution-loon buddies, including the one by that random Youtube loon Screaming Jimmy Tour, and his engineer friend – both of whom know crap about Origin of Life researach.
And here we have another example of Lee’s dishonest sealioning!
I have already debunked these bullshit claims of Lee’s here.
The editors-in-chief lack relevant expertise, most of the board are “professors” in fields unrelated to the journal’s focus. There is no evidence that the journal is “subscrib[ing]” to Paradigm’ ‘ethical’ services, as opposed to only their basic publishing services. And even if they did subscribe to them, that would be a far lower level than having their own ethical guidelines – which would probably need to be in place for Paradigm’s ethical services to be of any help in implementing them.
So yes Lee, it is a “crap journal”:
This is why I don’t consider being on a thread with you to be a “discussion” Lee. It is just you dishonestly grandstanding – with neither interest in nor consideration for the facts.
1 Like
Tim
(Dog All-nighty (temporary joke aimed at Dan))
1066
That’s because what was written by those he agrees with is perfect, whereas what was written by the benighted souls who have the temerity to disagree with him will always be in need of … improvement.
I’m having some difficulty keeping up with all the replies, because life. I will try and catch up, though. But here is a comment I came across recently, which speaks of amateurs and experts.
“It is always hard to make a rule about the claim of the amateur to contradict the expert. One test, which would by itself cart away a great deal of lumber, is the rule that none is a specialist outside his own specialty. In magazines and such modern arenas this truism is often oddly disregarded. … But there is yet another line along which the conclusions of the expert may lawfully be tested by the amateur. And these are the cases in which the expert actually asserts what the amateur is able from his own knowledge to deny. We are not bound to believe the Astronomer Royal when he disproves the sun in heaven; and though I may respect my doctor when he tells me I am dying, I shall differ from him if he tells me I am dead.” (Chesterton, New Witness, March 2, 1916)
Examples that come to mind are intelligent design, “According to Alison Gopnik, a professor of psychology at UC Berkeley and an atheist, ‘By elementary school age, children start to invoke an ultimate God-like designer to explain the complexity of the world around them, even children brought up by atheists.’ Atheists, of course, find this problematic, so Gopnik has sought to reach children before they develop such thinking and indoctrinate them into evolution with her picture book, See Jane Evolve.” (Douglas Axe, here).
Or “Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved.” (Francis Crick)
Douglas Axe, in his book “Undeniable”, goes into why our intuition is actually valid, and ordinary people can really perceive this.
Another example is “The universe came from nothing”: “Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.” (Stephen Hawking) But John Lennox points out why this is nonsensical, laws don’t create anything, they describe things. And all the laws of arithmetic can’t put money in my bank account. Then “X can create Y” makes sense, “X can create X” does not. For one, if you already have X, there is no need for it to be created! And so on.
Then if a scientist tells me my thoughts are solely the product of the motions of atoms in my head, and that they could compute what I would do next if only they had enough information, then I shall deny this. As the courts deny this, and say I am a real agent, and therefore I am responsible. And so do psychiatrists, they try and help people when they see that their thoughts are being caused by unreasoning sources such as mental illness. But the materialists tell us that that is actually what we are, the product of the motion of our atoms, of unreasoning sources, especially of our thoughts.
“DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music.” (Richard Dawkins)
Well, try that in front of the judge, Dr. Dawkins!
And more Chesterton would seem pertinent:
“Take first the more obvious case of materialism. As an explanation of the world, materialism has a sort of insane simplicity. It has just the quality of the madman’s argument; we have at once the sense of it covering everything and the sense of it leaving everything out. Contemplate some able and sincere materialist, as, for instance, Mr. McCabe, and you will have exactly this unique sensation. He understands everything, and everything does not seem worth understanding. His cosmos may be complete in every rivet and cog-wheel, but still his cosmos is smaller than our world. Somehow his scheme, like the lucid scheme of the madman, seems unconscious of the alien energies and the large indifference of the earth; it is not thinking of the real things of the earth, of fighting peoples or proud mothers, or first love or fear upon the sea. The earth is so very large, and the cosmos is so very small.” (Orthodoxy)
If you ignore everything that has been said to the end, does that mean you won?
4 Likes
Tim
(Dog All-nighty (temporary joke aimed at Dan))
1071
Another example of dishonest apologist strawmanning – Hawking did not claim that “laws … create anything”.
So Chesterton was simply yet anotherbigoted Christian chauvinist, more interested in caricaturing and belittling materialism than in actually understanding it?
His opinions are every bit as worthless as those of ever other Christian apologist who is more interested in winning arguments than in understanding the subject they are writing about. Nothing but empty rhetoric …
What, you’re not impressed by the appeal to Chestertons opinions argument?
2 Likes
Tim
(Dog All-nighty (temporary joke aimed at Dan))
1073
Not really, no. His claim rather depends on being able to confirm that “what the amateur [believes he] is able from his own knowledge to deny” is in fact actually factual, not assertion, hearsay, intuition, belief, etc, etc masquerading as fact.
I simply did not comment on it because it was not as egregious as the second Chesterton quote.
That does not however, mean that I think it (or anything else in Lee’s post) was worth a bucket of warm spit.
It seems to me the DI is consciously trying to follow the example of earlier apologists like Chesteron and Lewis, in trying to gussy up their faith-based presuppositions with a thin veneer of intellectual-sounding argument. The main difference is the DI, recognizing how the intellectual climate has changed, abuses science rather than philosophy to make their “arguments.”
Well, I’m willing to try, if even I can see a person is driving off a cliff. Like in scientism, as in saying “science is the only source of truth,” and it’s plain that that very statement is self-contradictory, that statement cannot be established by using the scientific method. So if it’s true, it’s false, and still lots of people today believe this, scientists do! People you would think would be discerning and perceptive, and still they drive off this cliff. Or as someone here said, only what can be established by measurement should be believed. The same sort of thing, it’s self-contradictory. If people are driving off a cliff like that, you do sort of have an obligation to try and point that out…
What he meant seems quite plain though, why did he say “because there is such a law as gravity”, if he didn’t mean causation? That’s what is meant by saying “because”. And you do seem to agree that laws don’t create anything, so do you agree that laws of nature describe things? If so, how is describing gravity in any way going to contribute to the arrival of the universe?
I notice that you did not defend or explain materialism in any way. Why do you not seem interested in doing this? Please answer Chesterton’s claim that “As an explanation of the world, materialism has a sort of insane simplicity. It has just the quality of the madman’s argument; we have at once the sense of it covering everything and the sense of it leaving everything out.” Take Dawkins, for instance: “In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” (Richard Dawkins)
Um, he explicitly leaves out justice, he leaves out design and purpose, he even leaves out evil and good! He leaves out a lot, explicitly, in his explanation of everything, yet people do seek and carry out justice, peoople do design things and have purposes, they do believe in evil and good. For crying out loud, Dawkins himself starts this passage pointing to animal suffering: “The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so.”
Whence this reference to events “beyond all decent contemplation”, he knows better than he knows, animal suffering is real evil, and saying “it must be so” does not explain the outrage and recoil we still experience in view of such events. He leaves out much that is real, in his explanation of everything, just Chesterton’s point.
I’m tempted to say this characterizes your comments, not Chesterton’s, how for instance, is Chesterton’s view a caricature? I think Dawkin’s comments illustrate Chesterton’s point very well.
Then there is this from Oxford: “Can only science deliver genuine knowledge about the world and ourselves? Is science our only guide to what exists? Adherents of scientism tend to answer both questions with yes. Scientism is increasingly influential in popular scientific literature and intellectual life in general, but philosophers have hitherto largely ignored it. This collection is one of the first to develop and assess scientism as a serious philosophical position. It features twelve new essays by both proponents and critics of scientism.”
So it’s an active issue today.
And I would point out that people who believe “The cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be” (Carl Sagan), and who note that science is the best way to understand the physical universe, then scientism is a quite logical conclusion. Only it’s self-contradictory.
Actually, they did! I had an extended discussion with them about this, which kind of tailed off when I realized and mentioned that this is self-contradictory. The statement itself cannot be established by measurement. Note also the mention in the above Wikipedia description of scientism as “the reduction of all knowledge to only that which is measured or confirmatory.”
As a lawyer who spent a lot of time in court, I find the assertion that “the courts deny this” quite strange. Courts deny no such thing. Indeed, I don’t think it ever comes up.
If one digs into the scholarship of the philosophy of culpability, both civil and criminal, one does occasionally find someone speculate upon the question of what the significance of some irresistable impulse, or innate propensity to commit a particular act, ought to have to do with legal consequences. But such questions generally don’t really go anywhere, for the simple reason that the law is not primarily driven by some sort of pure libertarian free will model of choice, or by some sort of “ghostly” conception of the self, or by a desire to punish guilt or fault. The law imposes a set of rules which constrain and channel choice, whether one believes in any particular abstract conception of “free will” or not and whether one regards the precursors of choice to be deterministic physical and chemical processes or not. And the law seeks to achieve objectives which go well outside of the desire to do harm to one who chooses evil. Compensation to victims, protection of the public, a desire to deter – none of these depend in any sense upon free will or upon any non-physical conception of how consciousness or choice work.
But the law is in a very real sense empirical. People who only read lofty pronouncements about the high ideals of the law think of it as some sort of grand philosophy – but it is a system based mostly upon practical considerations and upon real and observable relations between things in the world, not upon abstract conceptions of what the self is, whether people have souls, whether the strict determinists might be right, or anything else of that sort. It seeks to order human affairs in a way that is conducive to the things which people value; at worst that means it serves narrow interests that have little to do with the general public interest, but at best it means it does things like help protect people against all manner of harms and injustices, small and large. Its rules of evidence do not rest upon the epistemology of the philosopher, but more upon the epistemology of the workman: practicality, usefulness, and reliability rather than some sort of spiritual model of the self or the mind or some such thing.
I think that just as you are seemingly incapable of understanding what cognition looks like to a psychiatrist – even to the point of telling a psychiatrist that he doesn’t know how psychiatrists look at things – you tend to assign your own personal beliefs to a lot of others, and then insist that these imagined agreements are a kind of corroboration. You do that with psychiatry, and with the law, and probably with most things.
And I think that you grossly overestimate the value of belief, which probably causes you to overestimate the meaning of what you’re doing here.
Were every biologist on this forum to suffer a grave neural injury tomorrow, with the consequence that, by the afternoon, they all came here to log on and let you know that they now agree with everything you’ve said, it wouldn’t actually help. Their assent, without more, would amount to nothing. What would amount to something would be evidence adequate to convince their peers that people like Douglas Axe have something worthwhile to bring to the table. But that object is utterly unattainable. People have tried to do the most that can be done with a conversation like this; they’ve tried to help you understand. If you have the impression that you hold the tools which can draw some other result out of this conversation, you are badly mistaken; assent to your ideas by this group of well-informed people depends primarily upon whether they all suffer that grave neural injury mentioned above.
Yet you yourself have said repeatedly that we only should accept what we have tried and verified ourselves, just reading what other people wrote can be dismissed as “hearsay”. That seems to be very much along the lines of scientism, and even more extreme, and I tried to illustrate the problem with that by doing a whole post where I dismissed every point you made, saying “that your opinion, that’s just hearsay”…
Well, I meant they deny this by implication, by treating people as real agents, that are responsible.
I agree that the law takes no position on free will, and does not seek to define the self, as in taking a position on the constitution of a human soul, or some such thing. But there is real punishment in the law (I wouldn’t say desire for it), people going to the electric chair would disagree with you.
I would agree that laws seek to constrain and channel choice, whether they do so or not is another matter. Think Prohibition. But on your second point here, I disagree, the law does take a definite position on agency, sane people are deemed real agents, who make real choices that are not solely the effects of physical and chemical processes, and who are really responsible. Insane people, whose deeds were due to physical / chemical processes, e.g. mental illness, may plead “not guilty by reason of insanity.”
Odd then that jails even today are called “penitentiaries” As if people could somehow change, and commit themselves to a different path than they took before. As if people, with appropriate incentives, could choose to act differently. And people in prison ministry, who are trying to help people change, don’t think they (or prison sentences) are merely Pavlovian, they are not trying to shape reflexes.
Well, you can view it in that way, but I think we can glean more from the concepts of law, such as “just punishment”, or The Department of Justice title, or “the justice system”, why all this mentioning of justice, if the system is mainly focused on practical considerations? It does really seem that justice is being sought, not mostly practical outcomes. And strict determinism knows nothing of justice.
But people do value justice! That’s why they have Freedom Marches, and so on. Yes, the laws do seek to minimize harm (oops! you added “injustices”), but there is more going on there, too. Fair laws are spoken of, not effective conditioning or something like that.
My view though is that the courts do have a view of people that entails sane people as being real agents with real responsibilities (again without a specific model of a soul), which is more than mere usefulness for society (if that is what you meant), more than mere pragmatics, it involves administering justice, as in “The Justice Administration,” even. And you can’t carry out justice on your doggie when it pees on the carpet, there may be behavior modification, you may call it punishment, even, but it’s not like justice is applied to humans.