Did Jesus Fulfill Messianic Prophecies?

[DaleCutler]

End of squabble.

[DaleCutler]

@T_aquaticus

Do you think God is the Messiah? If not, God sitting in judgement over governments can’t be the Messiah spoken of.

Jesus is God, aka the Messiah. So absolutely yes, God sitting in judgement over governments (and us as individuals). Basic Christian trinitarian doctrine.

[T_aquaticus]

@DaleCutler

Jesus is God, aka the Messiah. So absolutely yes, God sitting in judgement over governments (and us as individuals). Basic Christian trinitarian doctrine

That’s Christian doctrine, but was it Jewish doctrine? Did the prophecies themselves speak of God as the Messiah?

[DaleCutler]

Figuratively, yes.

[T_aquaticus]

As to Isaiah 52-53, Origen states that the Rabbis of his time (3rd century AD) said that those verses were referring to the people as a whole.

“But He was wounded for our sins, and bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him; by His stripes we were healed. We all, like sheep, wandered from the way. A man wandered in his way, and the Lord delivered Him on account of our sins; and He, because of His evil treatment, opens not His mouth. As a sheep was He led to slaughter; and as a lamb before her shearer is dumb, so He opens not His mouth. In His humiliation His judgment was taken away. And who shall describe His generation? because His life is taken away from the earth; because of the iniquities of My people was He led unto death.” Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.
CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Celsum (Origen)

[T_aquaticus]

@DaleCutler

Figuratively, yes

Could you give examples from the Old Testament where it figuratively says that God is the Messiah?

[DaleCutler]

It starts as early as the shed blood of the animal (quite a possibly yearling lamb) in Genesis 3:21:

And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.

[DaleCutler]

Whole books have been written on the subject.

Jesus in the Old Testament

and

Amazon.com: Jesus in the Old Testament

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

@T_aquaticus

As to Isaiah 52-53, Origen states that the Rabbis of his time (3rd century AD) said that those verses were referring to the people as a whole.

That of course is a tautaological reference. How about before Christ?

[T_aquaticus]

@swamidass

That of course is a tautaological reference.

I think that criticism would apply to both of us. We would also need references pre-Christ that the verses are referring to the Messiah.

If nothing else, the Servant referring to Israel or the people as a whole is not a modern interpretation.

[T_aquaticus]

@DaleCutler

It starts as early as the shed blood of the animal (quite a possibly yearling lamb) in Genesis 3:21

I’m not seeing the connection. How is that describing God as the Messiah?

[DaleCutler]

It is a figure of Christ, the Lamb of God, and his blood shed to cover our our sinful rebellion. Since it is a figure, no, it does not explicitly refer to Jesus as the Messiah or the Messiah as God.

[DaleCutler]

Actually, even earlier than verse 21, prophetically in verse 15:

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. Genesis 3:15

This is figuratively referring to women’s typically inordinate fear of snakes, Satan as man’s adversary and ‘bruising Jesus’ heel’ on the cross, and Christ bruising his head by victory over death, “the last enemy.” (Read the whole chapter.)

[T_aquaticus]

@DaleCutler

It is a figure of Christ, the Lamb of God, and his blood shed to cover our our sinful rebellion.

How would you arrive at this interpretation using just the Old Testament?

[DaleCutler]

You don’t. Prophecy can only be recognized as fulfilled retrospectively, and that which is figurative especially.

[T_aquaticus]

@DaleCutler

Prophecy can only be recognized as fulfilled retrospectively, and that which is figurative especially.

That sounds like a recipe for confirmation bias.

[DaleCutler]

Everyone has confirmation bias, no recipes required. (Some biases are correct.)

[DaleCutler]

(How do you suggest recognizing prophecy as being fulfilled? Prospectively? )

[DaleCutler]

Having rejected Jesus, they would.

[DaleCutler]

No, it’s you failing to see the big picture.