Dinosaurs versus Flat Earth

Yes, this is definitely masterful reasoning. And so cogently stated.

By the way, this is what Yak Shaving Day is about. The original cartoon sequence seems not to be available, but this song is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mmISldi060

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And where is the evidence that all life was created like this in a singular event? Even if this is the case it wouldn’t have been bacteria. Those are highly complex and specialized modern organisms that don’t really represent the first living beings.

No, birds are dinosaurs, not because they lay eggs, but because they share certain specific anatomical features. I already mentioned this. Egg-laying is a trait in such a broad group of animals it can’t really be used to classify such specific groups as theropods, or better yet, coelurosaurs.

I’m also not getting why sexual dimorphism couldn’t have evolved. I’m pretty sure an explanation for that is sexual selection.

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What the heck was that? that wasn’t lol. what yak shaving was about. Wow.

There is one other way to look at the Adam and Eve story. Gen 1:27 has them both created at the same time. Chapter 1 does not name Adam. it says he created male and female. Chapter 2 goes over the story but then adds in that there was no one suitable for Adam so God created a women from Adams rib. It could suggest there was a population of men and women at the time made by God but Adam found them all to frumpy LoL and so God created a special woman for Adam. And the story of the Adamic race is that of the human race.

There are many of the same species from day one still living today. Clams and star fish, ferns, whales, Eel, turtles etc. And there is a lot of extinction. There isn’t an explosion.

On another thread we talked about no boned animals in the grand canyon layers and only farther up in the grand staircase. But there is some foot prints in the mud of a layer in the sediment in the grand canyon where essentially there is almost no life so where did those foot prints come from. it proves that those rock layers do not represent what was living at the time. It represents what was in those layers. I would argue Ocean layers. So it would be abnormal to see any land animals or anything until they were captured in lets say a river delta drowning in Dirt and then being buried in a heavy outflow.

Which leads me to a huge point that should make people angry. IF the grand canyon split open to allow North America to drain and a massive amount of sediment was washed out leaving the sides of the grand stair case exposed, then the best place to look for fossils would be in the delta of the Colorado river and beyond. You would expect some rich soil there. There are rocks bigger than buses swept out in that deluge.

As for Bacteria there as so many kinds and I think it would be hard to know for sure what has survived since then because most things are eaten by bacteria etc. and Bacteria is still bacteria. Even the Lenski experiment trying to force resistance couldn’t do a lot. 30 years of force and they couldn’t get a single fish or mouse to develop out of that doctored soup no matter how hard they tried. it was just bacteria. And I would suggest the same bacteria that made the world turn back then is here today. Not evolved. Resistant and stubborn but not evolved. My brother are both of those and funny enough we don’t think he is evolved either.

Send me the link to this thread.

Why would we expect single celled organisms to become complex, macroscopic vertebrates within only thirty years? I think your expectations of how evolution should work are a bit too high there.

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{I was apparently composing a reply to your post when it was still on another thread before its split. So this post resulted in a duplicate.}


I expected a thread beginning with Eric Dubay and the Flat Earth Society and an alleged “paleontology conspiracy” to go quickly off the rails. Yet, against my better judgment, I am going to weigh in (briefly, with just one response) before the various tangents get any more strange than they already are.

As to the image entitled, “Serious Errors in the Bible”, I’m not particularly interested in debating the entire Bible inerrancy topic but I do groan a bit when these four well-worn Internet-popular tropes are bandied about when each of them betrays a lack of basic linguistics knowledge which should be easily grasped by an ungraduate major in that field (assuming they’ve completed the appropriate 300-level courses.) Before I briefly explain, I’ll further set the table with this:

I agree that the aforementioned passages have absolutely nothing to do with dinosaurs. Indeed, nothing about them points to dinosaurs. Nevertheless, your argument is deeply flawed. Even though the word dinosaur was not coined until 1842, that doesn’t automatically render impossible a discovery of similar fossils by some ancient people which might have led them to assume that such beasts existed (or even continued to exist in their day.) Furthermore, it wouldn’t matter what those ancient peoples might have called those beasts. Tangible things in the real world don’t rely on their linguistic labels for their existence. Labels are no more than that: a convenience, a way for humans to refer to something using a term an audience understands in at least a general way.

No. Not even close. Just as anti-evolution creationists often demonstrate negligible knowledge of evolutionary processes and knowledge, far too many Bible-bashers display similar shortcomings in the basics of linguistics and translation. I will turn to a few specifics momentarily but first I can’t help but enjoy this conspiracy theory handwaving:

I will admit that I sometimes may be guilty of enjoying a well-spun conspiracy theory tale almost as much as those who truly believe them but I spent too many years involved professionally in the scholarship of ancient languages and their translation to let these fun but misinformed classics slip by unanswered. I will be brief because I’ve covered these in depth on multiple occasions on this Peaceful Science forum (and many others) or the past several years:

(1) “The Fowl has four legs Leviticus 11:20-21”

The underlying Hebrew word was translated as “fowls” by the KJV Bible translators of 1611 because “flying winged creature” doesn’t read all that smoothly. Most translations after 1611 have tended to use words like “winged insects” for two reasons: (a) the ancient Hebrews referred to just about all flying creatures (whether they be birds, insects, or bats) using the same noun label, and (b) the surrounding context of Leviticus 11:20-21 point towards the winged insect subset of that Hebrew word `OPH.

The KJV translators did a reasonably good job considering the paucity of Hebrew lexiocographical tools available to them from the late 16th and early 17th century but it is laughable to suggest that they produced a better rendering of this passage than all of the better equipped tanslators of the centuries which followed. (Facts and sound scholarship explain these differences, not lame conspiracy theories.)

(2) “The Bat is a Bird. Leviticus 11:13 &19”

First, please note the implied significant elipsis between Leviticus 11:13 and 11:19. No doubt that great distance helps explains why Bible translators have tended to use the concise and convenient word “bird” instead of the more technically accurate English equivalent, “winged creature” (which would have treated bats more comfortably according to the taxonomy conventions of modern English. Secondly, now that you know that the underlying Hebrew word is `OPH (“winged creature”) as explained in #1 above, you should abandon the silly conspiracy theory explanation.

Oops. I had planned to go ahead and debunk the other two items in the meme image but I just had a pop-up reminder that I have a dinner appointment so I’m going to leave the 3rd and 4th claims of the image to a quick search for my posts on them in the Peaceful Science archives. (Besides, I don’t enjoy repeating myself fielding the same old conspiracy theory arguments.)

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Im not sure where that conversation happened exactly. And yes my expectation are high about how much has to happen to evolve from bacteria forward because is see it as a construction project and how many steps would be needed to naturally select in a b line to humanity. And I would suspect in a lab that they could make short work of it having all the natural and unnatural stressors there to take the short cut each and every time.

But, actually, that IS what “yak shaving” is about, and always has been. I’m sure that @Faizal_Ali understood that, when I warned him that the Shaving Yak would not visit his house in his magic canoe if he continued to blaspheme as he was doing. As the day has now passed, I assume he indeed was skipped over on the Yak’s festive holiday rounds. He was warned this might happen.

And, alas for you, @Addish is exactly right about eggs and birds and dinosaurs, and if he were to pause on that topic a little longer he’d probably have pointed out to you that a shared primitive trait like egg-laying isn’t very useful by itself if you’re trying to work out the phylogenetic relationships between creatures which have it. But the human, turtle and platypus, to take from your list, share the amniotic egg which the fish and frog lack, and there IS a phylogenetic explanation for that. The spider’s not even a deuterostome so not terribly close to any of the others. The descent of birds from dinosaurs is shown by a broad range of evidence – not based upon the fact that they both are oviparous.

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On of my favorite videos is a ted talk by Riccardo Sabatini on how to read the genome and build a human being.
its my expectation with all the different DNA in the family tree that they will build a model that will show the transitions necessary and be able to craft those intermediate species in a test tube at some point. Or at least do some stretching to take each move as far as they could to step by step take a Bass and turn it into lets say a mudskipper into a lizard into a Porcupine or whatever the path is.

Then they can say. Look this DNA added this and that and we speculate that it got it from this virus which had DNA in it that came from X and this and that and poof the next step and here is the DNA and watch us as we implant these changes into the embryo and build ourselves this half bird half reptile. with some blockers to allow it to grow in a mother that really is forign to it but if we do this twice and get a male and female we can then move forward from this transitional species.

And if they do that then they could devolve the money back and back and do that fairly rapidly Obviously some species can lay eggs twice a year so that would speed up that process and other species have quick birth rates so it would likely push science toward those to do this un-natural selection pretense skipping through the genome. That would be hard to deny…

I never saw that 4 legged bird thing before. I generally listen to the bible and dont read Leviticus as much as books like Matthew and Hebrews. But the NIV does use the insect translation. shucks. I was hoping for a 4 legged bird! Or horse with wings would work for me.

My favorite verse in the bible is Exodus 24:10 (beyond the obvious ones.) If I could have one of those skate boards I wouldn’t need a four legged bird.

ungraduate? We had another guy on this site claiming to be an expert on the biblical languages. However, I proved that claim to be false. Now as for you, would you mind telling us what textbook(s) you used in 300 level Greek classes?

They called them giants which is where the Hebrew belief in giants came from. So, while you’re piddling around with tiny birds and insects you’ve got a real giant of a problem with the giants mentioned in the Old Testament. As someone else here pointed out the Bible was written by men who did not know where the sun went at night. But even so it is far too sophisticated for your literal minded approach to it. The fact that you were a minister (or claim to have been anyway) tells me you don’t know jack about the Bible. To me and any other reasonable people, you’re no different than a witch doctor or a woman who practices Voodoo.

I am not a Bible basher, you are. You people who go around claiming the Bible is a history book are the ones forcing meanings on the texts they cannot bear and are not shared by the authors. You people who try to tell us that the various solar characters in the Bible like Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, Aaron, Hur, Samson, Solomon, Jacob and his twelve sons, Jesus and his twelve disciples were actual people who lived and walked on this planet. And you do this without even a tiny shred of evidence that your claims even might be true. When we see the errors in the Bible of which there are hundreds, we should first assume they were put there on purpose so people would know not to take the stories literally. Because they were. But some people just can’t take a hint.

The word there is the genitive plural form of πετεινον which means bird. The only other animal mentioned in the passages ερπετον which means reptile. You couldn’t be more wrong if you tried. Linguist. :rofl: Now how about the names of those 300 levels textbooks?

No creationist theory holds up to the scientific method, but creationists are interested in winning an ideological war, not in scientific evidence. One of the things these people all have in common is their hatred for what they perceive as a materialistic, scientific worldview that leaves no space for God and spirituality. This point totally missed by scientists and science minded people, who continue to behave as if creationists just needed to be rebutted on solid scientific grounds, after which they would go away. Creationists need to have a reference point for their sexist, misogynist, homophobic, transphobic, Islamophobic views and their opposition to safe legal abortion, marriage equality, atheism and whatever else they oppose. If evolutionary theory had no theological implications like say atomic theory, there would be no debate.

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Irrelevant. Allen was discussing the Hebrew word, not the Septuagint.

Now it’s time for another one of my articles. This one is called The Bible’s Hollywood Makeover:

I think exercise is really important for maintaining your weight as well as staying healthy and living longer. Does anybody disagree? Let’s see what the Bible says.

“For bodily exercise profiteth little; but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.” – 1Tim 4:8 KJV

So, the King James Version of the Bible clearly says that exercise is of little profit especially when compared to godliness. This is an accurate rendering of the original Greek. My word for word wooden translation of this passage would be:

“And for of body exercise towards little it is profitable…” Greek New Testament

Here the King James Version of the Bible is a fairly accurate wooden rendering of the Greek New Testament. Now over the last century or so the Bible has undergone what we could call a “Hollywood makeover.” Unicorns became oxen, satyrs (a half-man, half-horse) are now called wild goats, dragons were renamed hyenas and this statement about exercise being of little value has been tampered with as well:

“For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.” – NLJV

Notice how the NKJV has retranslated the passage to say that exercise is now of “a little” value or profit. This is VERY important. The addition of the word “a” the indefinite article makes all the difference and makes it seem like the Bible now says exercise is of a little profit. For years Christians have complained that the Jehovah’s Witnesses incorrectly inserted the word “a” in the beginning of John’s Gospel in their Bible the New World Translation. So, it says that Jesus is “a god” instead of God. However, in Ancient Greek there is no indefinite article and we have to insert it where it goes when we translate Greek to English. The JW’s do this correctly; they have the right translation. But when the “a” is added to this NKJV passage of 1Timothy about exercise it doesn’t belong there. It’s part of the Bible’s “Hollywood
makeover” which is being done to modernize the Bible and make it seem less absurd. Let’s see how the NIV translates this passage:

“For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.” – NIV

Now exercise according to the Bible is not just of “a little” profit but it is of “some value.” Look at this very carefully. Still don’t believe in evolution? The Bible is evolving right before your very eyes! God’s unchanging word is changing! It’s no wonder there are so many people who insist on sticking with the King James Version of the Bible. Look at how the New Living Translation translates this passage:

“Physical training is good, but training for godliness is much better, promising benefits in this life and in the life to come. – NLT

Now physical training is “good” according to the Bible! We’ve gone from of “little” profit to “a little profit” to “some value” to “good” in only about only forty years of this “Hollywood makeover” of the Bible. We all know physical exercise is good for us. Apparently, whoever wrote 1Timothy was a bit unaware of the value of exercise. This might make it seem as though the Bible isn’t so divinely inspired especially when we read about other things like cockatrices, fiery serpents, satyrs, dragons, witches, etc. The passages of “scripture” that mention these things have been dishonestly removed, rewritten or edited beyond recognition from their original translation in the King James. So, what do you think modern translations of the Bible will look like in the near future as translators try to get the Bible more in line with modern science? I can just see it now: “In the beginning, God set Darwinian Evolution in motion… and saw that it was good.” – New Universal Bible, 2030.

Not only do Christians purposely reinterpret the false teachings in the Bible, they are actually writing them right out of the text! And then they have the nerve to claim they have the truth.

Considering that you’ve confused Greek with Hebrew, I’d say my work here is done.

I’m not at all oviparous but I’m known to be obstreperous now and then—which is why I avoid particular species of `OPH when a chess game is suggested.

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The Greek and Hebrew texts were written simultaneously at the Alexandria library right around 270 BCE. So, it doesn’t matter which language is used. You’re some kind of expert and you don’t even know that. :rofl: How did I know you wouldn’t and couldn’t supply the names of those 300 level textbooks?

When I was a kid, 15-16 years old, I met up with guys like you… And they would say similar things, so then being naive I rushed out and bought a Parallel bible and a greek lexicon and etc. etc. Started referencing a strongs concordance etc. etc.

One day when I drove away from a Church meeting I left that Bible on the top of my car. It was almost 5 inches thick. which should have been less than an inch. And guess what. I didn’t go back for it. Why?
Because I found that over and over and over every single nit picking thing was already hashed over long before I was born and all the differences were meaningless bickering over things that didn’t matter from Mark having the last chapter with a extra paragraph to some french man ending the use of those double line things at the end of a paragraph and not finishing the job when he was dividing up paragraphs.
Its not worth the struggle Why? because all those people, the ones who did the King James and Living and Revised standard and New American standard and NIV were all pretty smart. Smarter than you and I put together and you could generally find out any tiny difference if you looked in the notes already added to the bible at the bottom of the page and decide if it would alter how you would preach a text or understand a admonishment.
You make it sound like its a broken document when in actual fact is the most beautiful linguistic document known to mankind. There is stuff in their you could only dream of being able to do. The acrostic psalm 119 is Amazing. The 10 commandments Amazing. Matthew 5,6,7 off the charts Revelations Star Trek and beyond, Romans the Romans Road And Hebrews secretly tying into 1 Corinthians 13, Faith Hope and Love making them 3 theologies of Faith being the issues about salvation, Hope being the issues about eternal life and Love being the conduct of a person and the out put of the law living in ones heart And seeing the writers quietly dividing up their discussions in this order such that only one speaker I know of ever even noticed it other than me. The Pros are way beyond me Psalms 23 or Psalms 1 puts everything anyone has ever said to shame.

Your acidic view of religion is horrify and detestable and your view of the Bible worse. Anyone who has read any early church writers like Clement and knew their bible will hear the bible rain down through the words they have instilled in their soul showing that the bible was authentic then in its current form before 100 AD and there was no cheating or Hoaxes or underhanded dealings done to deceive the world. You are so far off, I wish that negativity could be harnessed we would have space X at mars already.

The Septuagint is an obvious translation. Whatever the merits of your astrology fixation and Greek influence on Biblical stories, the Hebrew scriptures predated any Greek rendering.

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Your evidence for that is… what? I’m pretty sure it’s the other way around.

You reminded me of:
2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
You take what would be a nice conversation and make it acidic.