I’m enjoying reading this conversation. It’s exactly what one would expect to encounter under the ‘Ironic Designer’ hypothesis.
“Does God adequately avail himself to man?” Ironic Design theory would suggest ‘absolutely not’. And that’s the intent of an Ironic Designer: To leave insufficient traces or evidence to determine whether the Ironic Designer existed but just enough to generate arguments over whether there was sufficient information.
How much “seeking” is required to meet the “threshold” whereupon he is revealed? How can people be sure that they have had this revelation? There are plenty of ex-Christians who certainly thought they knew God, only to change their minds later. What’s going on there?
Please specify and explain these thousands “better” ways. Thank you.
Not much seeking is required, it seems, but I’m also not sure the “units” or how to quantitate. “Seek and you will find.”
For example, does a person just have to close their eyes and earnestly say to themselves “dear God, please reveal yourself to me”, or do they have to spend a decade reading the Bible and going to church hundreds of times? Somewhere inbetween? I know these sound like very naive and silly questions, but I think they’re important to consider when trying to understand what God “wants” from us.
Was my reply to Mung just deleted?
To be clear, are we on the same page about the goal being to reveal himself to as many people as possible in the most convincing way possible? Or do you, like Josh, believe that the intention was only to reveal himself to those who seek him?
Another way of putting it is that you have to be open minded to have a shot of making sense of it.
@evograd we seen the phenomenal capaticy of anti-evolutionists to deny clear evidence, misread clear statements and obfuscate even the clearest of explanations. Closemindednesss makes everything cloudy.
I don’t think God is interested in fighting our closemindednesss. If we are closed, he allows us to continue that way for as long as we like. If we are open, it does seem he makes himself known.
"does a person just have to close their eyes and earnestly say to themselves “dear God, please reveal yourself to me” Yes, if you’re truly seeking. No, if you do not want there to be a God. And again the Shroud of Turin is a ripe example of God possibly leaving a physical imprint for Science to examine.
So an “open-minded” person can literally ask for God to reveal himself and then bam will experience something miraculous and suddenly they know for sure that God exists?
I haven’t looked into this in great detail, but my understanding is the “scientific evidence” vis a vis the Shroud of Turin is extremely shaky. Anyone else want to chime in on that?
I would say this in response, and this may not make good sense. It only makes sense to me after studying God’s word for many years and learning more about the nature of God. God is not physically constrained from availing himself to us. God (in the scriptures) says, basically, that we cannot handle seeing him. This is not fully explained, but I think that part of this has to do with our need for forgiveness. Do you remember being a little one and getting caught for the first time doing something you knew that you shouldn’t do? That deep feeling of shame and dread. I believe that, in order to be able to come into the presence of a righteous God, we must be without sin. It may be impossible to comprehend this, but I think that we will see the true gravity of our sins one day, and the shame will be such that we will finally understand, completely, the need to get rid of them. We, too, may understand that they must be paid for. And, because of this, we will also fully comprehend the purpose behind the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which, when we accept him, absolves us from that sin.
So, God coming in the form of man was probably the perfect way for us to be introduced to him.
While I do think that the image on the shroud is fascinating and it is certainly older than c14 says (it, at least dates to 8th century) I’m uncomfortable when it’s used as evidence. For either side.
In the book of Matthew Jesus made the statement “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Kids have a humility about what they don’t know and an openness to learn that a lot of us seem to loose as we get older. I think what God asks us is to set aside our bias’ and pride and be open to the possibility he exists. Then see what happens.
I would say yes to this. It will not be “bam” per se, but there are promises. Behold, I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person and he with me.
I hope that is not what he means.
A better question, though more personal: are you open to seeing and seeking if God exists, is good and wants to be known?
Answer of you like, or not. That is perhaps the centerpoint as I see it.
I’m interesting in how this works with children. You might say that many adults are too “close-minded” to receive revelation, but what about children? Surely a least a majority of young children are pretty “open-minded” about God, especially if they’ve had a religious upbringing. Or does God wait until people are old enough to “choose” whether they be open- or close-minded?
Have you read my experience with this yet? peacefulscience.org/swamidass-confident-faith.pdf
I don’t think all children believe in God. The are also not at an age of accountability yet. I also believe there are people who are open minded but it hasn’t made sense to them.
I also know that if you are closed minded, the chances that God will make it clear to you, against your will, are essentially zero.
“While I do think that the image on the shroud is fascinating and it is certainly older than c14 says (it, at least dates to 8th century) I’m uncomfortable when it’s used as evidence. For either side.”
Why?
Not enough evidence.
I appreciate the response, but as you predicted, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. I can see where you’re coming from, but I can’t help but think that it should be possible for God to “filter himself”, or however you want to think of it, in such a way that we can simultaneously “handle” seeing him and know that he’s real. Perhaps you would say that appearing in the form was his way of doing that, and I would be fine with that, but then there’s the fact that he only appeared to a certain group of people in a certain period of time. Why not come down in human form permanently, and perform miracles for anyone who sought him out? This would eliminate the need for faith. I’m guessing that you would have problems with this particular method of revealing himself to people, but remember that the only point I’m making in this particular branch of the thread is about the requirement for faith.