Dump the Metaphysics — How About Methodological Regularism?

It looks like we are using “immaterial” in different ways. However, i do not think the way i am using it is strange. There are a lot of things that are immaterial without being “Spiritual, mystical,magical etc”. To the contrary, they are a part of nature. For example, thoughts, emotions, feelings, consciousness etc are not material things, and hence are immaterial.

While statistics is important to classify or analyse data. It is insufficient to interpret it. The interpretation part is largely reliant on ideas… for example, Darwin’s theory of evolution was a new thought/idea which revolutionized how data was interpreted. The Data, even after applying statistical methods does not result in an explanatory framework on its own. An explanatory framework is built on ideas, which themselves exist/develop within world views.

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Can you elaborate on this idea? Is it possible to have a “method” in science without adopting any particular brand of “metaphysics”.
Here i am assuming the scientific method is a guideline which not only governs how data is collected, but also the ground rules of how to try and explain it.

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If we agree that it is just semantics, then my guess is that Christians actually practicing science simply don’t want to create the impression that they are lumping themselves together with ID advocates and creationists who go against mainstream science.

In addition, I don’t see what the issue with the semantics is. MN is mostly a descriptive term that is used by philosophers of science when discussing the practice of science, not by scientists actually doing science. This is another reason why a Christian scientist might see it as much ado about nothing. However, given the fact that Gilson is writing on a pro-ID site, the suspicion is that there is actual intent to change the practice of science away from MN/MR into allowing for design inferences. It could be an attempt to drive a wedge between theistic and non-theistic scientists.

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Hi, Daniel.

I have not read the Gilson article carefully, so I will restrict my comments to answering your historical question.

The term “methodological naturalism” (a term which neither scientists, nor philosophers of science, nor theologians, used before 1986, which might make us wonder about how necessary it is for religion/science discussions) seems to have two meanings, one narrower, one broader:

  1. When we are investigating why objects fall, or what causes fever, or what causes the Northern Lights, or how embryos develop in the womb, we don’t use angelic or demonic activity, or the power of wizards or voodoo priests, to explain the causes of these things; we look to “natural” causes, i.e., what we take to be causes resulting from the impersonal laws of nature.

  2. Science cannot say anything at all, not even by inference, about God, about teleology in nature, etc.

Now, note that everyone – or at least, everyone of significance in the culture-war debates, agrees with #1 (at least regarding how the world works now – some creationists raise objections to this principle when applied to origins, i.e., regarding how the world came to be in its present state).

The disagreement, then, is mainly over #2. Not everyone agrees that we can infer nothing about God, teleology in nature, etc. from scientific work.

Now, in the 17th century, Bacon and Descartes strongly pleaded for removing the discussion of “final causes” (i.e., discussions of purpose or ends in nature) from natural philosophy (the term “natural science” didn’t exist yet). Bacon said that “final cause” belongs in Metaphysics, not Physics (the study of nature broadly). These thinkers seemed to demand #2 above, as well as #1.

I am not aware of many conscious protests against the statements of Descartes and Bacon on this subject. It seems that Bacon and Descartes were articulating a principle which was already beginning to show up in scientific practice, and were pushing for a full, conscious adoption of that principle as the basis of all future science (natural philosophy, physics, whatever name you wish to use). Since science was already starting to go that way, anyway, there probably were not many scientists who wanted to take issue with Bacon and Descartes.

However, the historical situation is much more ambiguous than most modern advocates of #2 above generally admit.

For example, Robert Boyle, founder of modern chemistry, was a strong advocate of focusing on efficient causes rather than final causes; he wanted to study nature as a machine that worked by an internally coherent set of causes, not as something into which God was always sticking a miraculous finger, or in which spirits, angels, etc. were always monkeying about. Hence, it’s not surprising that Boyle liked the clockmaker analogy for nature – nature is runs as mechanically as a clock, not needing outside help to work. Yet even Boyle granted that, if used with caution, notions of final cause or teleology in nature had a place in natural philosophy. In fact, he wrote a whole book (1688) just to define that place: A Disquisition about the Final Causes of Natural Things: Whether, and (if at all) with what Cautions, a Naturalist Should Admit Them? This book, written long after Descartes and Bacon were dead, indicates that Boyle has thought about their view (he mentions Descartes by name), and slightly differs with them about it.

To put his results in short form, and in modern terms, he agrees with the narrow version of MN (#1 above), but not with the wider version of it (#2 above). So when theistic evolutionists and atheists in these debates tell you that modern science has always from the beginning rejected any possibility of inferring anything about God or final causes or teleology in nature from creation, don’t believe them.

In agreement with Boyle, Isaac Newton, in the General Scholium attached to the Principia, says that it is certainly permissible to discourse of God based on his effects in nature, i.e., based on the structure of the cosmos as science has unveiled it.

So it was not an absolute rule of modern science from the beginning that methodological naturalism in sense #2 above had to be accepted.

In the vein of Boyle and Newton, there followed Paley and the 19th century natural theologians of the Bridgewater Treatises. Modern Intelligent Design also operates within that vein. The tradition that science might be able to say something about purpose in nature or an intelligence behind nature has never completely died out.

So it’s not nearly as clear, historically, as modern advocates of MN make out.

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I don;'t want to philosophize to a philosopher, but isn’t metaphysics logically prior to empirical observation, which is logically prior to methodological commitments?

Metaphysics covers questions like what causes are, logic and so on. If one doesn’t sort those out first, then all ones empirical observations and conclusions are going to be based on unconsidered metaphysical commitments anyway.

One obvious example: Bacon’s science decided that formal causation was unnecessary, that final causation was God’s business and so intractable, and therefore that scientists should concentrate on material efficient causes.

Fast forward 500 years, and Bacon’s thinking is largely forgotten, but to many only efficient causes exist, and they claim nature has no “evidence” of purpose, failing to appreciate that studying efficient casuation is mataphysically incapable of revealing final causation - especially if you are unconsciously committed to its non-existence.

So metaphysics enables one to arrange ones toolbox rationally. Whereas starting from a methodology is, inevitably, the hammer that turns everything into a nail.

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Too much to say on this in this setting. But of course the truth of Christianity was assumed by most RS members, for example, though we must remember that the flavour of Christianity was affected by historical factors. For example, reaction against perceived Catholic superstion fostered cessationism on miracles.

Providence, however, was assumed and much discussed, sometimes in the context of questions like how much God would have to act by special providence to make the scientific enterprise unfruitful: an interesting discussion to study in a context when deism hadn’t been invented.

As you say, final causation was excluded, but not because of a working assumption that there was none, but that God’s will was not amenable to study and any attempt to do so led to arbitrary conclusions.

However, Bacon had hopes that, over time, patterns might be found even in God’s providences, that would enable scientific conclusions to be drawn. That seems a relevant point from the dawn of modern science for this discussion.

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But Daniel seems to suggest it at least guides us towards a particular view, which is (of course) the main objection made by those disliking the term.

The practical question, if we wish to maintain a true scientific agnosticism on the frquency of God’s involvement, is whether all or most practitioners clearly perceive your point that a methodology cannot determine a fact, or whether there is a tendency to drift into thinking that it can.

My impression is that such a drift contributes to the prevalence of “semi-deism” amongst Christian scientists, as witnessed at certain websites we could name. It would be as easily remedied by a little philosophy of science and theology as by trying to rebrand MN for the whole of science, but then there’s a related mindset along the lines of “Who are philosophers and theologians to tell us how to do science?”

To which, perhaps, the answer is “They are philosophers in order to tell you how to do philosophy of science, and theologians in order to improve your theology.” Or maybe that’s too simple!

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Natural - that which is not not natural., e.g., the supernatural.

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Sort of like unnatural sex. :rofl:

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Okay, so I am still working out my personal thoughts on all this… Most of my graduate training was in naturalized philosophy/epistemology. A naturalist is one who when thinking through the True (understood as questions of metaphysics and epistemology), tends to start with epistemology (understood as something akin to scientific method[s]) and how we know versus metaphysics as what there is in the world. Naturalistic philosophers will begin with how we know and let that govern what there is in the world and beyond. Standard analytic philosophers (and others) tend to start with what there is and let that govern what can be known.

Basically, the question revolves around either (a) epistemology driving metaphysics or (b) metaphysics driving epistemology. Both have strengths and limitations. A big strength of the latter (b) is its ability to furnish an entire system of thought (ala Aristotle and Plato). Get the metaphysics right and the rest follows. A big weakness of the latter is never being sure we have the metaphysics correct (c.f., again Aristotle and Plato – who’s right?). Metaphysics always resorts to table thumping no matter how eloquently or coherent our system. This is due to their inherent detachment from the world (the meta-) at crucial junctures (e.g., Plato’s Forms vs. Aristotle’s Final Cause)

The great strength of (b) is that it attempts to minimize metaphysical commitments, beginning with asking the question how we know what we know. A naturalistic approach will take into account scientific practice as the best, albeit far from perfect, method(s) for attaining knowledge. With a bare minimum of metaphysical commitments (logic, external world, etc.), we can study how agents “know” and transmit/communicate knowledge. I don’t need a metaphysical robust sense of causation if different disciplines can “operationalize” a definition of it; I’m okay with incomplete. The limitations of (b) are that metaphysics will always be fragmented and rather limited as one works “up” to metaphysics from the stance of agents in a world. Thus, complete systems of thought (perhaps even worldviews) are impossible to attain. I side with W.V.O Quine and his preference for desert metaphysical landscapes.

So, yes to @Ashwin_s. I think one can have a method without adopting any particular brand of metaphysics. I think science does a pretty good job of “controlling” for metaphysical (and other) beliefs in determining on what there is.

And, @jongarvey, metaphysics may be logically prior to epistemology. However, as humans in a world, we are forced to start with epistemology – exploring our world “scientifically” (cf., Alison Gopnik). We may move to metaphysics, but that epistemological (I would say scientific) starting place must always “check” the metaphysical commitments and systems we build.

As a last thought, this naturalistic philosophical view I tend toward is why I take Christology and the God of Christianity breaking into the physical world to be of such importance. I don’t start with God (metaphysics) and then make my system work accordingly, I start with Christ (epistemology) and then have a lot of unanswered questions/doubts/struggles about how it all fits together.

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Yes! I agree – I think MN has become something of a litmus test, despite the fact that all of us adhere to something like MN in different contexts, e.g., medicine, economics, etc.

This makes a lot of sense and is the way I’ve always understood MN. The second bullet point often gets put to use in Natural Atheological Argument(s), but at that point the person is engaging in something extra-scientific. Thus, the conversation needs to switch gears so to speak, retooling the ethics of discourse to something larger than the “scientific” frame of reference.

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I don’t think epistemology can get far at all without asking how can we know about what and I think that dumps you right into metaphysics. Put another way, can you do epistemology at all if you don’t exist, and thus right back in metaphysics.

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I agree, or at least understand your meaning here. It this a shift from mathematics being immaterial?

I would say that explanatory frameworks are inferred from material data. We observe data, make inferences, and generalize to make predictions. Ideas play a role here too, but to what extent are ideas immaterial? If I have an idea about a better theory of (something), and it turns out to be a better description of the material data, then what is the nature of that idea?

I need to think more about this one! :slight_smile:

Of course I can. I just have to be crazy enough to think you are real! :wink:

No. Would you consider mathematics as “material”? Isnt more closer to things like “ideas”, “logic” etc?

I guess it’s back to how one defines “material” :slight_smile: .
If inferences involve some kind of inductive reasoning… how can it be considered material?

Ideas never exist in a vacuum. They are given meaning by various metaphysical and epistemological considerations.

That is fine, but the question then is what is the relationship between the two? What do you think metaphysics adds to the conversation? We are going to disagree about the metaphysics of humanity, but all have brains that think/reason/act in a world. Even in metaphysical debates, the question often under discussion is “how do you know that x is true?”

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Thanks @Philosurfer I agree with you.

@Ashwin_s (and everyone else), I can’t help but feel that all the concerns about MN adding in a metaphysical bias to be total hogwash. I affirm MN, and see no influence on my metaphysics. For goodness sakes, I’m making the case for special creation, all while affirming MN. Rather than arguing against MN, better effort might be devoted to making a case for special creation and/or God’s action in the context of MN. It really is not hard to do this.

Somehow, the people who seem most concerned about the influence of MN, also seem the strangely disinterested in making the positive case for God’s action that is consistent with mainstream science. Why not find a better way? Seems like it is marked out right in front of us.

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It is affecting/biasing you if your game is to provide a complete “picture” of reality. However, I’m of the opinion that most scientists are not playing that game (at least professionally). Most scientists are very comfortable with a lot of anomalous/inconsistent behavior in their “systems.” It is the nature of the scientific game and as @jongarvey pointed out in the other thread on MN, the world itself!

However, philosophers and theologians tend not to be comfortable with the anomalous/inconsistencies, smoothing them out with metaphysical reasons in the case of philosophers and God in the case of theologians (or some combination of the two if you are a Christian philosopher). However, this “smoothing out” sanitizes the epistemic messiness that is the world, including our metaphysical knowledge of it.

I am, of course, making broad generalizations and speaking from only my experience. Perhaps people here from both science & theology & philosophy & X, Y, Z can corroborate or challenge.

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I am trying to provide a more complete picture, but extending beyond merely science. MN constrains science, but it also makes clear we have to take other ways of knowing seriously too. The dialogue between the two is where things get interesting.

I think we are on the same page @Philosurfer. The paradox here is embedded in the dialogue. We respect the autonomy of each way of knowing, but also encounter them together, with all the messiness and questions and uncertainty. @jongarvey calls me a “critical realist”, and I think he is right. I’m more and more certain we can only know a thing by engaging in critical dialogue with said thing.

This, also, is why I am increasingly losing patience for these circular objections to MN. It increasingly seems like a rejection of dialogue, an inability to engage with paradox. Sure, MN limits science, but it also invites other ways of knowing in addition to science. Non-scientists should welcome this as a dignifying approach, rather than attacking it for excluding them for science. I’ve participated in the conversation here long enough to have heard most the objections to MN. I’m struggling to see much substance in these objections.

More than careful and coherent cases, they seem propelled by the sad wail of exclusion from science. Seems to miss the point. MN is an invitation to dialogue. It is an invitation to accept, not an exclusion to protest.

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Agreed.

Yep. This view has roots in Popper and more recently developed my Alister McGrath. Without having looked into the tenets of position too deeply, I’ve been nudged by colleagues to look into the position.

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