"Early Genesis" and "The Genealogical Adam and Eve"

[anon46279830]

@Roy

Unfortunately for your thesis, several of those animals are native to the region, including camels, donkeys, geese, pigeons, bees.

The “region” in question is central and eastern Anatolia. As I mentioned, I think the garden was somewhere near the source of the Tigris and Euphrates and they went east from there.

Here is the range of the dromedary camel. Here is the range of the Bactrian Camel. So it doesn’t seem to me that they were native to the area where I place the garden. Maybe you didn’t catch that I think it was near where they meet and not further south in Mesopotamia?

Same thing with the donkey really. Our domestic donkeys are all from the African Wild Donkey, obviously not native to the area of the Garden. Even the Asiatic version, which has never been domesticated, barely had a range on the SW edge of that area. And I really don’t care about the flying things. There mobility would make them poor candidates for early domestication even if they mattered. They are only minor players. Discovering a connection with them would only be the cherry on top.

For example, since you are a fan of wikipedia, the entry for Pidgeon says it was domesticated “as far back as 10,000” years ago from “Mesopotamia”. That is somewhat south of my proposed site for the garden but the species from which they sprang is native to the region and so I will take a ‘wait and see’ on them. It is close enough to where further research could put them on the list of domestic animals which got their start there as well.

@Roy

Your source says 12,000 years ago, not 11,000 years ago. I’d ask why you’re misrepresenting it, but the reason is obvious. You’re changing the dates to fit with your ideas.

The headline of my source says 12,000 years ago. My source says, “Cats were first domesticated in the Near East, and some of the study authors speculate that the process began up to 12,000 years ago.” These are not exact numbers. There are error bars on them like in all of science. “Up to 12,000” means that is the maximum. What they found physical evidence for was 8,000 or so. Therefore when I say 11,00 years I am within the time they have found physical evidence and the maximum distance back in time the experts feel it may have occurred. Does that justify your attempts to impugn even my motives Roy?

@Roy

Yes, it was long after the domestication of cattle, sheep, pigs and goats. Your thesis suggests it should have happened at the same time. So your thesis is wrong.

My thesis can live without including horses. Plenty of farming and animal husbandry societies got on without them just fine. Until someone got the idea to ride them, they were of less and harder to manage and contain that the big four, as well as being less desirable except as a pack animal. Therefore, as an aside I speculate that if they were domesticated > 10K ago like the rest, they were not widely adopted until much later. So then I predict that we will find earlier evidence for the domestication of the horse on the SOUTH side of the Caucuses. They just didn’t break out until people found a good use for them.

Regarding the dogs, I think what the study is saying is that modern and ancient dogs have more “eastern” dog in them than ANE dogs have. IOW, Eastern dogs contributed to modern dogs. Even if ANE dogs are the majority of genes in European dogs today, they still have significant contribution from eastern dogs. The ancient original European domestic dog is what was essentially replaced. At first there may have been mixing with the Ancient Near East dogs and European dogs, but after that third wave of dogs came, heavily Eastern dogs coming in with the Steppe Pastoralists, the ancient European dog was replaced. So modern dogs in Europe are now a mix of two original dog populations, ANE and Eastern. Consistent with what I was saying.

But the thing that really gets me is what you see in the diagram from the original Smithsonian Study. I keep saying this is within a 1,000 year period and you keep insisting that is wrong…

@Roy

That’s because you’re looking for data to shore up your ideas, and ignoring anything that conflicts with them. Your own source mentions evidence of early sheep domestication 12,000 years ago - 2,000 years before cattle, and 1,500 years before pigs.

I am going to display the image for the third time. It doesn’t matter if at some point one of the researchers cited a study somewhere citing “some evidence” that sheep domestication may have been earlier. The map represents the conclusion they have drawn after studying all of the evidence.

Look, I could go on here but I have a very full life and it doesn’t seem like we can even look at the same simple diagram and agree with what it says. We can’t even read the same one page article on cats and you accept a simple statement I made which really does fit quite reasonably with the article’s overall claims. I can go talk to someone who is able and willing to hear what I am saying. Without ascribing blame, that isn’t you. It may not be John either but if I have time I’ll give it one more go with him. I only posted this video here because our host invited me to, but it’s become a time suck with no profit to either of us. Without animosity, I will not be responding to any further comments you might make on this thread.

[Roy (30-year veteran)]

Yes, v. interesting. (I skipped some of the appendices)

[John_Harshman]

@anon46279830

The “region” in question is central and eastern Anatolia.

Just not true. Anatolia intersects at most only the very western-most edge of the region shown, which extends far into Iran and Iraq. Perhaps you have merely confused the terms, and “Anatolia” isn’t the word you were really looking for?

@anon46279830

I can go talk to someone who is able and willing to hear what I am saying.

You mean someone who is willing to believe what you’re saying. Not the same thing at all. This is the way of all concordists: they end up having to distort both the bible and the science in order to fit them together, and get all huffy when anyone mentions the distortions. The evidence suggests that rather than starting in the Middle East and diffusing solely from there, both plant and animal domestication happened independently at many different times all over the world. Dogs were the first, long before any of the events you’re talking about, so you have to ignore or explain them away. Plants were domesticated in both China and the Americas around the same time or even before the Middle East, so you have to ignore those too. And so on.

[anon46279830]

@John_Harshman

Just not true. Anatolia intersects at most only the very western-most edge of the region shown, which extends far into Iran and Iraq. Perhaps you have merely confused the terms, and “Anatolia” isn’t the word you were really looking for?

I mean south central Anatolia and S Eastern Anatolia

@John_Harshman

Plants were domesticated in both China and the Americas around the same time or even before the Middle East, so you have to ignore those too. And so on.

Again, we can’t even agree with what the facts are. And you guys maintain 2,000 years is such an impossibly long time when speaking of domestication of animals yet count it as “the same time” when speaking of domestication of plants. I could link to 100 different articles on plant domestication that would say it started where I am talking about, when I am talking about. And if it happened so close in time in various parts of the world isn’t that more of a problem for you than me? How could diverse groups of humans in isolated parts of the world all start getting the same idea about a lifestyle change at the same time? Regardless, 2,000 years is plenty of time for ideas to spread.

@John_Harshman

You mean someone who is willing to believe what you’re saying

Well that would be nice too, but to get there one has to be willing to agree on what the facts mean first one has to agree on what the evidence says the facts are, and I have not seen enough of that to justify my further participation here.

@John_Harshman

Then that seems not so much incompetent as immature of him. Why does he need to be appreciated and praised? It’s all about him, not what’s good for us.

This is the last thing I feel any desire to reply on. I’d rather end defending the nature of God than my specific ideas about the Garden. WE are the immature ones, because we have not chosen to grow beyond self and into love that transcends us. He designed us to need Him and one another to facilitate this end. All of reality screams that we must die to self in order to truly live, yet most still refuse to learn the lesson which all of creation constantly thrusts before them. Therefore I should not be shocked that some will refuse to see the simplest of facts about the natural universe and will constantly mis-interpret things so as not to see the possibility that God is.

He wants us where He is, though we are but dust before Him. The writer George MacDonald said ““I am my own” is the first Principle of Hell”. Only when there is pure love though, does disregarding ourselves not lead to abuse. The only place it is safe to become who we truly are is in Him. Those who do not understand will assume the worst of His every word and act. How He appears to us is a function of our own spiritual condition. He said “to the pure I show Myself pure, to to the froward, I show myself contrary”. Mere facts cannot help you John. They can’t help any of us, outside of connection to him we can’t even see things rightly. But He will give you what you want. If you wish to be connected, He will respond and heal. If you do not, He will respect that too, and give us ourselves.

[John_Harshman]

@anon46279830

I mean south central Anatolia and S Eastern Anatolia

Turkey has recently redefined the word to refer to all of Asian Turkey. But I doubt you will find anyone else using it that way, certainly not in the context of ancient history.

@anon46279830

Again, we can’t even agree with what the facts are.

Correct. What are your alternative dates for the domestication of rice, corn, potatoes, and squash? What is your evidence that plant domestication in the Middle East was earlier?

@anon46279830

And if it happened so close in time in various parts of the world isn’t that more of a problem for you than me?

No, unless you think that there was some means of instant communication between Asia and South America 10,000 years ago.

@anon46279830

How could diverse groups of humans in isolated parts of the world all start getting the same idea about a lifestyle change at the same time?

It might have something to do with a change in climate. There’s no reason to suppose it had anything to do with one mythical character.

@anon46279830

Regardless, 2,000 years is plenty of time for ideas to spread.

It isn’t if we’re talking about getting from Mesopotamia to South America. All the American domestications were entirely independent of the Old World.

@anon46279830

How He appears to us is a function of our own spiritual condition.

Agreed. Those who have drunk the Koolaid seem impervious to both fact and scripture. There is no need to proselytize here, though.

[Roy (30-year veteran)]

@anon46279830

Look, I could go on here but I have a very full life and it doesn’t seem like we can even look at the same simple diagram and agree with what it says.

Sure we can. You just won’t admit what the rest of that paper says.

We can’t even read the same one page article on cats and you accept a simple statement I made which really does fit quite reasonably with the article’s overall claims.

We both know it says cats were domesticated in Egypt, maybe as far back as 12,000 years ago.

We also both know that you reported that 12,000 as 11,000 instead - which doesn’t fit in with the article’s overall claims, any more than referring to the 11 tribes of Israel or Jesus having lived in the time of Septimius Severus would fit in with the Bible.

Your attempt to claim that you’re not misrepresenting them because their 12,000 was a maximum because they said “Up to 12,000” fails because your phrasing (“maybe as far back as 11,000 years ago”) also suggests a maximum. Your comment on their being error bars fails because (i) you don’t know what the error bars are, and (ii) the error range on their number and your number won’t match.

You can’t be relied upon to accurately represent your sources, so you might as well give up and go home, because the only thing you’ll convince anyone of is that you shouldn’t be believed.

I will not be responding to any further comments you might make on this thread.

That’s a shame. I was looking forward to you trying to justify this comment:

The “region” in question is central and eastern Anatolia. As I mentioned, I think the garden was somewhere near the source of the Tigris and Euphrates and they went east from there.

Here is the range of the dromedary camel. Here is the range of the Bactrian Camel. So it doesn’t seem to me that they were native to the area where I place the garden.

in light of how close the dromedary range you referenced comes to where you think the garden of Eden was, as can be seen clearly when overlaying the two:

and in light of this comment:

For example, since you are a fan of wikipedia, the entry for Pidgeon says it was domesticated “as far back as 10,000” years ago from “Mesopotamia”. That is somewhat south of my proposed site for the garden but the species from which they sprang is native to the region and so I will take a ‘wait and see’ on them.

where you are quite happy to include something that happened “somewhat south” of your proposed site because you can stretch the timescale closer to your preferred date.

You have God helping Adam domesticate animals, but not telling him that horses can be ridden or used as pack animals, not telling him about the camels that live a few miles downstream, and not telling him how to catch pigeons. Your scenario is ridiculous.