At the invitation of our host, I share this video with an overview of two books which share one big idea: Two Population Scenarios and the theological implications thereof. The books are “The Genealogical Adam and Eve” which he wrote, and “Early Genesis, the Revealed Cosmology” which I wrote. The books share one big idea, while diverging from there in part because they have different yet perhaps not oppositional, goals.
Thanks for this @anon46279830. Has interest picked up on your book?
For those of us with no interest in buying the book, could someone present a summary, particularly of the exegeses of Genesis 1 and 2?
He takes a sequential view of Genesis 1 and 2.
@swamidass knows how to punch my buttons and get me to respond! The book doesn’t really take a sequential view, though I can see why someone would say so. It is more like a recursive view in that chapter two goes back and zooms in on something only mentioned in chapter one- the formation of Adam.
The premise of the view is that God knew about the plan of atonement from the beginning and Genesis points to the later work of Christ from the beginning. Obviously this cannot be true unless it is indeed divinely inspired scripture, so I would expect you to be immediately dismissive. However, it turns out when you do this the text lines up much better with evidence from the natural universe than the traditional view. A view which cannot be right if Jesus is right because He said in essence that Moses wrote about Him to the extent that one could not even really believe in Moses unless one also believed in Him (John 5:46). That sounds like an impossible statement and I am surprised that skeptics have not seized on it before. However it turns out that the apparent conflicts from evidence about the natural universe beautifully resolve simply by doing this.
Each “day” is describing things happening in both the natural and the supernatural realm with the same language. This realm is a sort of echo of that. This continues with the creation of man where verse 27 is key. It has been mistranslated. It should be
So God created The Man in His own Image. (Hebrew separation mark here)
In the image of God created He him, male and female created He them.
God’s goal has always been Christ and the Church. It wasn’t something He had to fallback on once things failed to go as He anticipated. So “the Man” is the part in heaven. It is Christ and the Church. Though it was ordained first in heaven, it is not seen on earth until last. We see things in reverse order relying on the long-established theological principle of God knowing the end from the beginning.
The second “created He him” is the echo of that on earth, Adam and where chapter two fits in. The third part has a treble meaning, Christ and the Church, Adam and Eve, Men and Women (who notice are NOT in the image of God because that requires a relationship with The Image) generally.
So we have the goal in heaven, Christ and the Church. On earth we have men and women who are not there yet. To initiate God’s plan to make man (humanity) in His Own Image He forms Adam and Eve. They are the way to get from where we start, to where He wants us.
The conversation in Gen. 1 is nothing like the conversation God has with Adam and Eve in chapter two. That’s because it is a different conversation, with a different group of people. And it was a group. There was no single couple origin for humanity, and therefore MRCA calculations are essentially an attempt to date something that never happened.
If you take all of the theology out, what is proposed happening on earth does sound a lot like what Joshua is saying.
PS- interest to me is unchanged, unless I am a victim of the “watching a puppy grow” syndrome. However there is something coming up this late Spring and Summer which I cannot say more about which has the potential to change this. There is still one chapter I wish to re-do, based on what I have learned. It is on what I consider a side issue, but many are more interested in it that I am.
Cheers.
Thanks for that explanation, but what I was most interested in is how, as you say, your understanding is more in tune with what science tells us. Could you explain that part?
If we are just talking Gen. 1 and 2, the age of the universe and earth, the condition of the universe (why it was not ‘perfect and deathless’ but like it is now), the reason primary concordism seems awkward in places (because the text is talking about more than the natural realm), a complex relationship between God creating or making living things and the earth doing it (evolution), man can be relatively ancient and start from a population not a relatively recent single couple, and not start as agriculturalists with domesticated animals, but have a long period where they fail in the 1:28 commission to tame and subjugate the earth. All in the text, all along.
Stuff like that.
Goodnight.
Firstly gentlemen thank you all for really caring about knowing our Father of creation. The desire in us all to ratify our understanding in a unified way in peace and debate is commendable.
Another perspective based on scripture.
Moses wrote the first 5 books, so let’s just start with what perception our forefathers had before we let our imaginations run wild.
In the first chapter we find that there is creation and prophecy, Isaiah informed us.
Isaiah 46:10 ESV
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
There appears to be a purpose to us experiencing our foreknown current experience. Should we look for the prophecy of the end at the beginning?
subject in question is Adam and Eve, creation and evolution timeline and who were the other people. Moses did not have the book of Ezekiel or Isaiah did he? Please correct me if wrong in a peaceful way.
At this point Man ( first Adam) who had not sinned had dominion over creation itself. To understand what dominion at that time meant without sin, is it not a good idea to look at the second Adam who did not sin? The second Adam had dominion over the elements of creation, he walked on water, calmed the storm, raised people from the dead, cured illnesses and yet gave all credit to our Father, he did not claim it was by his own power, it was his Father blessing him with his heart acknowledging that his and our Father is the reason for all creation and the reason these miracles took place. The second Adam had his Fathers spirit upon him as the first Adam did before he sinned. We all have the ability to choose right over wrong as history has proved with Kings, nation and individuals turning away from our Fathers wisdom as evidenced time and time again in the book we have now.
We all have a choice not to hurt anyone, deceive anyone, this should be because we care about our relationship with our Father who we know watches all of us at the same time. We all come into his presence good and bad and that’s how he is Lord of hosts, and that’s how we are all sons of God. We that treasure that relationship and can reflect his love by the actions we take, and honestly no human has to even know if you have done a good deed because you know our Father knows regardless, and it is treasured that you/ we are discreet and kind to others all based on our treasured private relationship with the Most High who said there is no other God beside him.
Back to the first ADAM, who was brought all the animals in the second chapter by our Father to see what he Adam would name them. Adam named them all by understanding their character intently and communication with them was at a different level to what we experience today.
Next our Father gives the first Adam a partner who is Eve.
Then our Father gives them one command, basically putting life or death, darkness or light before them as he did with Cain, as he did with all of us, as he did with Israel. Yes free will to choose to life or death. Always has been and has never changed.
The way I personally understand this is that the first Adam before he sinned had many God given abilities as the second Adam did without sin. We all know that power corrupts and absolute power, corrupts absolutely, unless you are God of course, the first Adam could have been Godlike having dominion, but he was the first Man and appears to have wanted more which we all tend to be like in the state we are in at present.
Now let’s look at who was in view in the Garden. Adam, Eve and the serpent. Now who had dominion over the animals and creation in the garden?
By who and how was the serpent used to convey this lie to Eve.Have we imagined someone into the scriptures by making Satan a fallen angel? Can not the adversary be ourselves if we choose to oppose our Father’s instruction? Adam and Eve were punished and the serpent for allowing itself to be used in this event.
Who thought with all his ( Adam’s) power that our Father was holding something back from him. Was he already like our Father as made in his image and yet wanted to know why he could not eat from the knowledge of good and evil? God wanted a family to love and engage with. Is it unreasonable to say that he wanted to engage with others similar to himself. How would he accomplish this purpose with Love and Freewill? What is the purpose of Freewill, but to choose to love him or not. So it’s appears either love him and others or love ourselves apart from Him and others.
Did the first Adam convince the serpent to tempt Eve and place doubt in her psyche, as he had developed in his own psyche ,thus hiding his part in this event?
I can’t see anyone else in the garden.
The serpent was cursed because it allowed itself to be used by whoever. Eve was punished because she chose not to acknowledge her Fathers advice. Adam was punished, was this because he done the same, which was really his own thoughts and intentions.
There is a general consensus that the Book of Job is one of, if not the earliest book written, now if true, was there a known true narrative of what went on in the garden?
Job 31:33 KJV
If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:
This is not talking about hiding behind a tree. This is about hiding or thinking you could hide things from our Father if he was not there in what us humans consider as physical presence. A bit like Cain saying after being questioned.
Genesis 4:9 ESV
Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” He said, “I do not know; am I my brother’s keeper?”
They both ( Adam and Cain ) appear to not have grasped the omnipresence of our Father. Even though we all search, he is forever present.
We know that Seth was not born until Adam was a 130 years old. So yes not only Cain was not following our Fathers loving direction, but the sons and daughters before Seth were all deciding for themselves and not calling on our Father.
Did Adam and Eve repent when he was 130? They were all living outside the Garden. Cain went his way and could have easily married one of his sisters and had others follow him to his civilisation.
Now going back to Cain, he did not give a heartfelt offering as Abel did, so our father tried to encourage him to change his ways. Instead he decided to not take our Fathers advice and hurt his brother.
Adam had the ground cursed initially and it obviously was not cursed for his children because Cain brought fruit of the ground. After killing his brother the ground was also cursed for Cain and he had to leave and wander. Cains main concern was for his own life after understanding that our Father sees everything even though we too often reason no one will know because no one else is actually here watching us if we do something in secret. After realising his Fathers creator knows everything even if you don’t believe it, as he did before killing Abel. he was concerned if found he would be killed. Our father put a mark on him that prevented this from happening if anyone see him. Was Cain now a giant in size compared to the average man? He went off and built a city. I know this is conjecture, yet so is the fallen angel doctrine.
Now forward to Seth having Enosh, for some reason people started to call on our Father. What was going on at that time?
We know that Cains Line was growing and Lamech in Cains line was taking more than one wife and killed someone and joked about it. Obviously it wasn’t good and got to the point of Genesis 6 where we read in the ESV
So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.
These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.And Noah had three sons,
Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the
And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh,for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
What was man doing with, animals and creeping things and our feathered friends?
Hod determined that he would remove man who had corrupted his way, not fallen angels who corrupted man.
We can see that it was Man that had corrupted his way and the earth was filled with violence. No mention of a entity (fallen angel) called Satan. All we have in view is that mans adversary is himself with free will to do as he pleases with the choice between life and death. Man selfishly chose to serve his own desires and the imaginations of his heart was evil from his youth. In my opinion that’s where we get the fallen angel doctrines peppered around in archeology and fables, because of mans evil imagination of worshipping false gods that have no power. So far we are only up to chapter 6 in Genesis and there are no demons or fallen angels getting the blame for corrupting mankind, just mankind corrupting all flesh. I hate to think what they were actually doing with animals, maybe tinkering with DNA, who knows? Whatever it was it had to be stopped. Fortunately for us Noah was righteous in our creators site and we all got to be born and exist.
Now moving on to the scientist Christians who believe in evolution over aeons of time.
Please consider the prophecy of Isaiah previously quoted.
Each day of creation could represents a 1000 year prophecy. The Hebrew alphabet consists of 22 letters. In the first chapter, only 21 of these letters are utilised. There is a calculation that brings the use of these less than 22 letters in the first the first chapter , that produces the sum of pi 3.14 etc that represents eternity.
So after our Father had seen all that he made looking into the future he said it was very good. Is this how he completes his purpose of making mankind in his image at the end of the 6th millenium, like he did the first Adam before he fell.
Genesis 1:31 ESV
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
The first man was always going to abuse this power because he was not God and would seek to be God. How will he produce a mankind in his image without us having a history of us deciding collectively for ourselves apart from his Love. We will never again decide to do things our way apart from him. We will know where it got us before. We are living in that prophetic time now.
Now back to prophecy,
Creation and Prophecy
The first day the heaven and the earth were created. Light and Darkness.
Good and evil if you like, yet darkness can not comprehend the light. He introduced darkness to us all and we became accustomed to death.
So Adam was created in light and had Gods spirit upon him. Through his selfish desire to be God or not believing God about the tree he should not eat from, he fell into darkness. Under the curse of death. God said in that day you will die. This gives us good reason to believe that this day he would die in is a 100O year in length as Adam died at 930 years old. He also knew he was naked and was cast out of the garden. Our father made a way back though for all of us. These events happened in the first 1000 years prophecy represented by darkness but light shining through it, this was always going to happen not because of God, Because we were never going to be Almighty God even though being blessed with Godlike attributes. The first Adam always would though, feeling equal to God would always try to seize total control. Quite the opposite of the second Adam who did not feel it something to be sieved upon and constantly directed all the attention to our Father of creation.
The second day of creation.
Our father separated the waters from above from the waters below and made a firmament.
In the second 1000 years of time, those waters came back together and flooded the earth and removed all corrupted flesh. This 2nd day of creation is the only day our Father doesn’t say it was good. What foresight he truly has about the choices mankind would make?
The 3rd day he made dry land appear. In the 3rd 1000 years Moses walked through the midst of the waters as dry land appeared. Also on the 3rd day all herbs and food was created.
Moses exodus of people were all fed manna from heaven and were given the spiritual food, the law of kindness to your neighbour.
The 4th day we had 2 great lights and the stars created as signs.
In the beginning of the 4th 1000 years we have David a shepherd appear and made a king, pointing people back to the written law of love, with Christ appearing at the end of that 4th millennial day. The brighter light, being the living law of love.
In the 5th Day our Father created all the animas.
With the light already created plants can make food by photosynthesis. But reproduction of plant life also requires our insects, our birds and our animals. symbiosis. You cannot have one without the other else both will not survive. Millions of years of evolution will never work. And in turn, plant life is also food for all birds, fishes, animals and us mankind.
On the prophetic side new human creatures belief system was created and diverse and multiplying around the globe.
Day 6
Here we have our Father project his calling to his son 6000 years into the future knowing that his son would be sitting at his right hand by then. Saying let us make man in our image.Man is running to and fro and knowledge is increasing.
The first Adam was made at the end of the sixth day in Gods image and God alone created him. Yet we are living in a magnificent time in the 6th thousand lot of years, just before we enter the day of rest.
There are more people living now on the planet than all that have lived before. Our father did say be fruitful and multiply.
Now all scholars who are debating can we be all correct about certain understandings and all wrong on different elements of our Fathers word? I include myself in not having everything right. Yet we have one understanding that there has to be someone greater than ourselves who started it all.
If you break down the Hebrew of the seven Hebrew words in the first sentence of our bible. You will find all these prophecies of the first seven days of creation. Each letter has a meaning and with the next letter makes a new word that is genius and wisdom from out of this world. You will also see his son turn up on the fourth day, fourth word and return at the end of the sixth day. Just before the seventh day of rest. We then have a 1000 years to really come to know our creators love.
I am not a Jew, Christian ( 40, 000 different denominations), or a Muslim from Islam.
I am a lover of our creator and a lover of my neighbour.
I have never claimed to have the Holy Spirit as it manifests in our brothers and sisters experiences. I would love brotherly and neighbourly rebuke and the opportunity to engage in fellowship with you all. I am not perfect in anyway and grateful that our Father made it clear to me through his word that all responsibility is with me. I have a choice and because of my 24/7 awareness that he is there and does exist, my life changed.
I believed in many imagined doctrines previously and behaved like the First Adam, who blamed someone else for my short comings previously.
The sons of God are not fallen angels in my understanding of why the flood happened. It was through man corrupting his way through his own imagination.
I am a unlearned man as far as the way the world labels wisdom. So kindly excuse any grammar, punctuation mistakes.
Yet the wisdom of God exceeds all perceived wisdom of the world. His wisdom is treasured, the wisdom of the world is man judging another by measure of his own status in the arena of mans wisdom. Which is a good barometer for the time we exist in at present.
All I know is we are all brothers and sisters.
No church, no doctrine as my understanding grows and is not ever stationary in a doctrine that is imagined into scripture. I can’t have your relationship with our Father and you can’t have mine. We can share a common ground that we all acknowledge he exists, thus allowing us to share understanding and perspectives until all is evident.
I more than anything look forward to this time Jeremiah speaks about. It is coming regardless of how wrong or correct we are.
Main teaching in the Book, is Love God by Loving your neighbour because he or she is a son or daughter of God, even your enemy as only God knows when when and how to judge someone.
I know I personally have not perfected my desire to reflect his Love. Yet will not give up trying.
Evolution is possible only within its own kinds.
Lots of different types of dogs, yet still a dog.
Or
Is there a scientist that can show us not just bacteria changing to another bacteria. That is still bacteria.
Show us one KIND evolving into another KIND.
Jeremiah 31:34 ESV
And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
I will not be offended by scriptural rebuke, I may even learn something. May I please come back with scriptural conflicts to a imagined doctrine into scripture. Yes these imagined doctrines sell books because of the imaginations of our fallen hearts. The scriptures really don’t all rely on the 80 years of New Testament teachings. There is 4000 years of teachings before this time. The second Adam warned us about these teachings creeping in.
Brotherly love to you all
G
One last thing I want to mention because this goes beyond reconciling the text with where science is now and moves into finding predictive power in the text: The Christ-centered model also suggests that Adam and the Garden was meant to help “jump start” human civilization. That is, man had not progressed on his commission in 1:28. Adam as a figure of Christ in the natural was to improve the life of humanity in the natural just as Christ has done in the eternal. The animals in the garden were a limited sub-set of the animals created in chapter one- animals fit for an agrarian and pastoral lifestyle in that they were domesticated versions of certain wild stock. Man should have already gotten them to there by then, but he had not. So Adam and the animals made to be his “helpers” sort of gave this process a jump-start.
Sounds implausible. But when I compare the time and place the model called for Adam to the time and place that true agriculture emerged, AND the domestication of basically all major food animals today emerged, it was that same time and place.
Yes, it sounds very implausible, and it just isn’t true that domestication of all major food animals and crops happened in a single time and place. It happened in many parts of the world over many thousands of years.
John I link to a Smithsonian study there showing sheep, goats, cattle and pigs all show up in the domestication epicenter. Dogs managed to be domesticated earlier, no doubt because they could hunt with us, but even that strain was pretty much replaced by a strain from this time and place. And its the same place that various forms of grain and many fruits are domesticated. Not corn or rice maybe because they were not from that region and were domesticated much later, but various forms of wheat and barley and a great number of fruit trees. If you have some evidence that this was not the domestication “ground zero” for humanity, I invite you to share it here.
You are correct that the process did not end there. Thousands of years later in various parts of the world other crops were domesticated and other animals domesticated. But that is where humanity first shook the limitations of being a hunter-gatherer and instead shaped the land and the living things on it.
I see that the study puts cows considerably older than the rest, and that “epicenter” extends across most of Asia, and it doesn’t include a number of other domesticated species.
Two forms of wheat, one of barley, and a few fruit trees, as opposed to the great many grains and fruits (and other plants) domesticate in other times and places.
The evidence shows that there was no “ground zero”, just a lot of independent origins.
Again, this “where” you speak of is most of the largest continent, and you will have to show that it was first, and you will have to show that other domestications were not independent. I doubt any of those can be done.
Are you looking at the same thing I am? I put the map from the study below. It doesn’t “extend across most of Asia” and in particular the intersection of all four major meat mammals humanity use today is very restricted geographically. It doesn’t come close to extending across “most of Asia”.
I also don’t understand your claim that the study puts the domestication of cattle considerably older than the rest. Rather, the evidence at the time of that map was that cows were domesticated about 1,000 years later than the other three, but the researcher has noted that evidence came in subsequent to that which push the origins of domestic cattle back- perhaps into a similar time frame and place as the other three.
Cattle domestication caught on quickly and it is true that another “node” of domestication was started near India with the Brahma variety (note- I know that breed came later, but that is the term I am using for the strain which led to them), but that was more like 8K ago while (or even more recently). What I am talking about was 10-11K ago. It was copying a good idea, but this is where the good idea came from. 2,000 years is a long time in human history.
I would hasten to add that when I say one of these animals was domesticated in this zone in most cases it means that more than one variety of each had their origin there. So it isn’t just the “big four” but even most of the sub-groups of the big four, with the exception of Brahma cattle in India a couple of thousand years later.
No, that is just all that came to mind immediately. I researched it once and the situation is very similar to that of our most popular mammals. A HUGE proportion of kinds of our most important fruit and grain crops that we use today came from the same time and place. Granted, later men in various times and places copied the innovations started here, but that is just what I am saying happened. The fact that the rest of mankind started getting their act together and going from hunter-gatherers to exercising true dominion over the earth is what I am saying was the point. The animals that the LORD God made for Adam as “helpers” wasn’t just the LORD pulling a joke on Adam. They did help man start to do what they should have been doing since Genesis 1:28, whenever that was.
But not horses, camels (twice), geese, llamas, chickens, zebus, bees, ducks, water buffalo, chinchillas, pigeons, turkeys, edible dormice, rabbits, mink, donkeys, guinea pigs, alpacas, ferrets, banteng, cats, ostriches or yaks.
Nor does the evidence show that even those four were domesticated at the same time - there’s a 2,000 year spread.
Anyway, how did that evidence escape the ravages of the flood?
Citation needed.
Which fruit trees? Most are grown elsewhere.
Wheat and barley are not a “HUGE” proportion of our grain crops. We also have rice, corn, millet, oats, sorghum, quinoa, buckwheat, rye, spelt and others.
Yes, but I misunderstood. Still, this isn’t a small area. It extends over nearly a thousand miles east to west. And while these are the oldest domesticated animals except for dogs, there are independent domestications of alpaca, chickens and turkeys, guinea pigs, and two species of duck. In plants, what about rice, corn, beans, potatoes, manioc, squash, and possibly sago, all of them domesticated around the same time as wheat and barley? It didn’t take a mythical instigator to come up with domestication all over the world, and it’s not even clear that the events in and around the fertile crescent were the first. Rice first appeared as much as 13,500 years ago.
Now that’s just embarrassing. He tries out all those animals as helpers before eventually settling on Eve. Food was certainly not the sort of “help” intended there.
You have to wonder at God’s competence in this version of the story. Why, if humans needed a jump start in order to do what he wanted, didn’t he give them that start at the beginning?
Please check me out on this, they were not. Those other plants were domesticated much later as near as we can tell. I think you may be underestimating how hard it is to switch to an agrarian lifestyle. Wolves or other bands of humans could just take from you what you worked hard for months or years to build. If you got it wrong, you could starve. There is a reason they call it the “Neolithic revolution.” And where the Tigress and Euphrates meet seems to be the epicenter.
It is the equivalent of a daddy-joke. The LORD God was pulling a little joke on Adam. Adam knew what he wanted, but all he kept getting were these beasts (not all beats, but those of the field, not the earth. Different word). Nevertheless, they did help him. His near descendants were herdsmen. The commission from 1:28 to have dominion over the beasts of the earth was on track at last.
It is extremely consistent with God’s manner throughout scripture. He lets us go our own way for a while to see that we need Him. We can’t do God’s will without God’s help. We were never meant to. Romans even says this is the point of the law. The Pharisees thought of it as an instruction manual where if they did it, they could be righteous without God, just on their own works, but none of us are justified by our works. The point of the law was to multiply transgression to help us see that it isn’t about how good we can be but how good He is.
C’mon Roy. Naturally animals not native to the region were not first domesticated in the region. Should I even have to say that? Those other animals were also domesticated much LATER than the big four, so that it was an echo of what went on with Adam’s clan, like it was supposed to be. I explained that in my reply to JH.
The two exceptions on your list, that can’t fly off anyway, are cats and horses. I like to say “We don’t really know the time and place that cats domesticated humans”, But it is pretty well known that they came from the Middle East maybe as far back as 11,000 years ago. It isn’t as narrowed-down as the study on the domestication of the big-four edible mammals but the area I proposed is within they area they say it happened.
The case with horses is more controversial. The Botai people seemed to be the first true “horse culture” around 7,500 years ago but those horses were replaced by others. There was a recent study which was touted as “resolving” the issue of where the domestic horse originated (NE Anatolia or the Steppe) in favor of the Steppe. But I don’t think they even collected the right evidence to properly answer that question. I’ve put my thoughts down on that below, and if someone with some chops in the field wish to look at it and chime in I would be interested in hearing it. Either way, this was long after the domestication of other animals. I speculate that until the Steppe folks got the idea of riding the horse, it was only used as a pack animal and better at escaping enclosures thus it wasn’t much used until the idea of riding was developed.
The geography isn’t as specific as I like, but 11,000 years ago there were five distinct pops of domestic dog. Since that time until 4K ago there was a great loss of diversity as others, including the original European population, were replaced by pop from ANE.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/370/6516/557
That isn’t what I see. I see a 1,000 year spread and I mentioned that later the same researcher said that they found evidence for earlier cattle domestication, pushing the spread to 500 years. That is shockingly close together, probably within the margin of error for this kind of thing.
Because scripture doesn’t really teach the extent of the flood was global, it teaches that the consequences of the flood would have been global if it had wiped out the line of Messiah, for then God’s plan expressed in 3:15 would never come to pass. But the clan of Adam didn’t just keep those treasures to themselves. They didn’t even keep their daughters to themselves. Presumably as other groups tried their hand at domestication, they took some gene flow from this group to spread those desirable traits. I mean look at pigs, the original domesticated pig genes have been pretty much replaced by wild pig genes, without losing domestication!
Again I wonder how you can say this. It is like we are living in different worlds. Are you counting beer production when you discount the importance of barley? Spelt is just a kind of ancient wheat, same time and place. Rye too, though it might be from a bit later. The rest came later, as the domestication process was repeated with other plants. And that was good, That was the way it was supposed to be once the ball got rolling. 12K ago all humans were hunter-gatherers. Now, almost none of us are. And that change started about where the Tigris and Euphrates come together. Two of the four rivers of Eden. Within the earlier part of the time frame I had previously calculated for Adam.
I used Wikipedia as a reference. What’s yours? And I really don’t think wolves are going to steal your potatoes.
I thought you said it wasn’t a joke. And of course the text says nothing about a joke.
Then that seems not so much incompetent as immature of him. Why does he need to be appreciated and praised? It’s all about him, not what’s good for us.
Are you claiming that agriculture was brought to the Americas from the Middle East? Where’s your evidence for that? And what dates do you have for the domestication of corn, squash, potatoes, and manioc? Rice, too.
Unfortunately for your thesis, several of those animals are native to the region, including camels, donkeys, geese, pigeons, bees.
If there was some event where Adam was helped with domesticating animals, it’s odd that donkeys, camels, pigeons and geese weren’t among them. So odd that your thesis needs to account for it. You need to explain why your thesis is a better match to the dates for domestication of those animals than the mainstream one.
Camels and donkeys can’t fly. Nor is whether animals can fly relevant - unless you think God made pigeons as helpers for Adam but didn’t show him how to catch them…
Your source says 12,000 years ago, not 11,000 years ago. I’d ask why you’re misrepresenting it, but the reason is obvious. You’re changing the dates to fit with your ideas.
Yes, it was long after the domestication of cattle, sheep, pigs and goats. Your thesis suggests it should have happened at the same time. So your thesis is wrong.
Again, that’s not what your source says.
All ancient and modern European dogs have greater affinity to eastern dog ancestry than ancient Near Eastern dogs have …
We hypothesized that the genomic ancestry cline we observe across ancient European dogs could be, at least in part, due to admixture between dogs associated with Mesolithic hunter–gatherers and incoming Neolithic farmers.
European dogs weren’t replaced by ANE dogs, they interbred with them to produce a mixed lineage.
That’s because you’re looking for data to shore up your ideas, and ignoring anything that conflicts with them. Your own source mentions evidence of early sheep domestication 12,000 years ago - 2,000 years before cattle, and 1,500 years before pigs.
It’s only shockingly close if you ignore the evidence that it isn’t.
If you’re going with the ‘not global’ tack, then you should say what the extent was, and explain why it didn’t include the area where you’re getting your evidence that Adam supposedly domesticated animals.
We are. I’m living in a world where those are all domesticated crops, and you’re living in a world where some of them don’t exist, where South Americans copied Middle Easterners when the domesticated yams, and where rye is a subset of wheat rather than a separate genus.
No-one is disputing that agriculture began in that time frame in that area. The dispute is whether it had anything to do with God/Adam.
Wolves are not interested in fields of wheat.
Will you explain why you cited an article that says
It may be that “nobody owns a cat,” but scientists now say the popular pet has lived with people for 12,000 years … Cats were first domesticated in the Near East, and some of the study authors speculate that the process began up to 12,000 years ago. While 12,000 years ago might seem a bold estimate…
and represented it as saying “But it is pretty well known that they came from the Middle East maybe as far back as 11,000 years ago”, which matches your thesis so much better than the actual number given? Because it looks like you are changing the evidence to match your ideas when it should be the other way around. If you can’t be relied upon to accurately represent your sources, you might as well give up and go home, because the only thing you’ll convince anyone of is that you shouldn’t be believed.
Incidentally, have you ever read Jared Diamond’s book Guns, Germs, and Steel"?