Evolution in Pre-School?

Dear Rev. Miller:

Thanks for your interesting comments here. Yes, there are many people who have doubted aspects of evolution (either on the scientific or on the philosophical side of that term) other than modern ID folks and creationists. Certainly Henri Bergson doubted Darwin’s account of evolutionary mechanism, and Stanley Jaki, who was both a scientist and historian of science (and Catholic priest), expressed some reservations about evolution as a scientific theory. And two atheists, Bradley Monton and Thomas Nagel, being neither ID proponents nor creationists, have been willing to entertain the possibility that aspects of evolutionary thought might be flawed. I’m told that at one point in his life Chomsky expressed some doubts about evolution, or at least about Darwin’s version of it, and at some points in his life (though he wavered) the philosopher Karl Popper expressed doubts about the status of evolution as a theory. There are also Hindu and Muslim religious believers who have expressed doubts about evolution, without any reference to the text of Genesis.

I guess I need to know what you mean by “Hindu” here. Normally, Hindus – at least, if we refer to the classical Hinduism of the Six Schools – are not regarded as atheists, though the degree to which they conceive of God as personal (as opposed to impersonal) varies. Buddhists, on the other hand, are often atheists, in the sense of not believing in God (though they may acknowledge other beings, higher than man, subject to the wheel of rebirth – gods, as it were, but not God as Westerners conceive the word, or even Brahman as Hindus conceive of the higher reality). Of course, this side-comment on Hindus does not affect your main point, with which I agree.

The point is that if a high school offers n biology courses, one in ninth grade and one or more in later grades, the sum total of all the material in the courses will have the effect of preparing the student for college-level biology. As long as all the material gets covered before the student leaves high school, the student will be ready. And any student, even a fundamentalist, if he/she is thinking of maybe medical school down the line and a biology or biochemistry degree before medical school, will want to stock up on high school biology courses, to be as ready as possible for college biology. So the kind of student who is going to have something professionally to do with the life sciences is going to get evolution in high school whether evolution is taught in ninth grade, or deferred to a higher grade.

So if there are pragmatic reasons for swapping units around, moving some other biology back to ninth grade, and moving the evolution unit forward to an upper grade – and by pragmatic reasons I mean getting a million angry parents off the schools’ back about evolution – I see no reason why such a swap of elements couldn’t be arranged. All the students who have any real interest in the life sciences would still get their evolution instruction before leaving high school, and most of the objections to teaching evolution in the high school would be gone.

Why should a fundamentalist parent care if a school teaches evolution in the upper years if her daughter, who is planning to be a hotel manager or commercial artist, has no interest in biology and isn’t planning to take it again? The only reason the fundamentalist parent cares about evolution in her daughter’s school is that the daughter is made to take science in ninth grade, and science in ninth grade is usually biology (in most jurisdictions, anyway), and if evolution is part of the ninth-grade biology curriculum, her daughter will have to sit in class and be taught that evolution from a primordial blob of slime to man is a fact as certain as the law of gravity. But if her daughter can get through the science requirement without learning evolution, the mother will have no interest in what other students might voluntarily take in upper years. So most of the opposition would dissolve.

90% of the fight in the country is over a two- or three-week unit in one science course, in one grade. And it’s absurd that millions of dollars, millions of man-hours, and volumes of rage and abuse, should be generated by one tiny component of the overall science curriculum, which in turn is only one component of the whole high school program. Every single statement taught in ninth-grade biology about evolution today could be taught almost without resistance in eleventh- or twelfth-grade biology, and this would reduce the culture war over evolution in the schools to a pale shadow of its current self. So I’m simply making a very practical suggestion.

Of course, there are some who will say, “It’s important that even those students who will never take another science course in their lives, and will be involved in walks of life that require no scientific training, are taught that evolution from a primordial blob to man is as certain as the law of gravity, and by gosh, we’re going to make them all learn it, whether they or their parents like it or not!” Well, if that’s the attitude, then the culture war over evolution in the schools will never end, because millions of Americans will react against being bullied into submission in that way. So the question is: How badly does one want the culture war over evolution in the schools to end?

The Samkhya, Yoga, and Mīmāṃsā orthodox Hindu schools are certainly atheist. I don’t want to start a distracting tangential sub-thread so I will simply recommend this Wikipedia article as an excellent introductory primer on this topic:

I happened to mention atheist Hindus rather than atheist Buddhists because I knew several of the former (including a Hindu mathematician and computer scientist who had an office adjacent to mine at the university) that same year that I got to know the aforementioned anti-evolution Maoist/Marxist. So those atheist Hindus came to mind when this subject was broached.

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LOL! There aren’t a million angry parents fighting against teaching evolution. There are a few hundred dedicated ID-Creationists most funded by the DI trying to disrupt public school science classes. Your excuse for dropping the teaching of evolution is as lame as it is transparent. What’s next on your agenda, getting schools to drop geology and astronomy because of those millions of angry parents who believe in a geocentric flat Earth?

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Hello again!

Yes, you are right that we shouldn’t get into a sub-thread on Hinduism. I am not denying that there are modern people who call themselves Hindus who also call themselves atheist, so I do not dispute your examples. I was just cautioning against an inference some readers might make from you examples.

By the way, I do understand why some would class the schools you mention as atheistic, and there is a sense in which the philosophical formulation looks atheistic. But nuance is required, given that all of those schools claim to be founded on the teaching of the Vedas, which are not atheistic. Just for background information for future conversations, my doctorate is in Religious Studies, and I studied Hinduism at both undergraduate and graduate levels, so I don’t need a popular source like Wikipedia as a source of information. My shelves are stocked with books on Eastern thought written by world-class scholars. I certainly would not trust Wikipedia as a source on Hinduism or in many other areas. Sometimes the Wikipedia articles are written by people with very poor understanding of the material they are writing about. In most cases they are written by hobbyists, not scholars. But again, this does not affect either your examples (i.e., you know someone who identifies as both Hindu and atheist) or your main point about evolution. I was just adding a cautionary footnote for the benefit of readers who might want to look further into the details.

Have you studied any of the polls on American religion, and specifically on Americans’ religious beliefs on origins? Something upwards of 40% of Americans polled think the world was created in the last 10,000 years. And what is the current population of the USA? Somewhere around 300 million? You do the math (if you aren’t the product of modern schools, and therefore can actually do it without a calculator). What’s 40% of 300 million? More than “a few hundred”, at least when I went to school. And in any case, States wouldn’t be passing legislation regarding the teaching of evolution for the sake of only a few hundred people.

Which I already said was not what I was advocating.

Darwin was ignorant of all those things, and he still did a pretty good job.

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Psst…hey genius… “doesn’t accept evolution” does not equal “actively campaigning to have evolution removed from mandatory science classes”. Maybe you need to take a remedial course on reading comprehension, and/or stop guzzling the DI’s Kool-Aid. The only “culture war” over teaching evolution is the phony one the DI keeps trying to manufacture.

Yes, he did. But today’s ninth-grade students – the majority, I mean – certainly aren’t literate enough to read Darwin, or follow his trains of reasoning. My university students are reading Darwin now, and they have trouble with some of his expressions.

In any case, you have been telling me that I should forget about Darwin and concentrate on current evolutionary theory! So my point still stands: ninth-grade students won’t be able to understand a great deal about current evolutionary theory, until they get more genetics, cell biology, ecology, botany, zoology, etc. under their belt. Sure, they can be given a popular account. I was reading popular accounts of evolution when I was 5 or 6 years old. But it won’t be as rigorous as it would be if one waited until a little more biology, chemistry, math etc. were under the students’ belt.

There still basics that are easy to learn. I remember doing the classic toothpick experiment when I was in 7th grade. You take a bunch of multicolored toothpicks and throw them in some grass. You are given 15 seconds to grab all of the toothpicks you can. Afterwards, you record the color and number of toothpicks you started with and how many you picked up. Sure enough, you tend to leave more green ones behind. Classic selection.

You can also teach the basics of cladistics and nested hierarchies based on morphology.

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You must be very young, because you seem unaware that there has been a culture war over evolution since the Scopes trial, and one which has increased in intensity since the early 1960s with the book The Genesis Flood and the meteoric rise of Young Earth Creationism to dominance among creationists. You’ve never heard of the debates between mainstream scientists and Duane Gish? The DI wasn’t even formed until the 1990s, but already creationists had been active for decades challenging biology curriculum, lobbying for “equal time” for creationism, etc. If the DI collapsed tomorrow, YEC would go on, and on. Reading a little history would do you some good.

Another silly strawman. No one is advocating using OOS as a textbook for 9th graders. Just teaching the basic concepts similar to the U. Berkeley’s Understanding Evolution site designed for school children.

Maybe in your family they can’t but in virtually every other family 9th graders are completely capable of understanding evolutionary concepts.

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I agree with all of that, aquaticus. But of course you can also teach comparative morphology alone, without reference to evolution – which was what was done in Darwin’s day and before, prior to acceptance of evolution, by most of the greatest naturalists of Europe. I’m all in favor of teaching animal and plant classification, in ninth grade and even earlier.

LOL! The DI must be paying you to push such ridiculous over-the-top propaganda. CULTURE WAR!! A HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE WANT EVOLUTION ERASED FROM SCHOOLS!!

You ID-Creationists crack me up sometimes. :grinning:

What wasn’t taught before Darwin was why we see patterns in how features are shared, and why species fall into nested hierarchies to begin with. That is when you can introduce descent with modification.

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Sure, you can do this. And you can do it in a “light” way at earlier grade levels, with the appropriate simplifications. I’m not saying it’s impossible to give students an idea of evolution in ninth grade. Obviously it’s possible. But if you move the unit to a later year-level, you can not only teach the science in a more sophisticated way, but can avoid all the fights with fundamentalists over school curriculum. I’m not suggesting watering down the quality or the quantity of the science, but merely the timing of the curriculum elements across the high-school years. It was just a practical suggestion.

I didn’t say a hundred million people were actively trying to erase evolution. But probably over a hundred million of the population accept a young earth with no evolution. If, say, only 2% of that number actively object to the school curriculum, you’ve got over 2 million creating immense difficulties through the pressure they put on school boards, local and state, and through their constant confrontations of principals and teachers. Why do you think these cases keep coming up in Kansas, Texas, Georgia, etc.? I don’t think you understand the religious sociology of America very well – if you did, all of this would be obvious to you, and I wouldn’t have to point it out. Discovery didn’t come along until about 20 years ago; religious-based resistance to evolution in the schools had long been a social reality in America at the time of Discovery’s birth. Discovery’s involvement is a symptom of a problem that already existed, not the cause of the problem.

Yes, you did. Right here.

Technically you claimed it was 120 million but I rounded it down for you. The comment was so stupid it really wasn’t worth responding to except to point out you have no idea what you’re talking about. Regurgitating the DI’s nonsense talking point about a “culture war” has been your only contribution to date. Fail better next time.

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Tim Horton:

It’s clear that listening carefully, and reading carefully, is not something you intend to do in conversation with me. And your tendency to impute bad motives to people, and to make false accusations against people based on speculation rather than evidence, are repugnant to constructive dialogue. So I won’t invest any more time in responding to your statements.

Eddie it’s clear all you are capable of doing is shilling for the DI’s anti-science propaganda. I’ll be sure to highlight every one of their falsehoods you regurgitate. :slightly_smiling_face: