Evolutionary Science, not Darwinism

What, credentialism? As you recall, I asked which of Nelson’s views should be listened to, and you respond by giving me none of them. Incidentally, I think I may have argued with him once at a party, if I recall about the Euthyphro dilemma. I don’t think he said anything worth repeating (if it was him).

Exactly.

Yes, you do still sound paranoid.

I don’t think you know that. I think it more likely that if you were a full-time professor of evolutionary biology you would more likely get from a brief description the that book was probably nonsense. I’m not actually a professor, but I’m an evolutionary biologist, and it sounds bogus to me based on your description.

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Out of curiosity, who was his advisor?

I answered that above.

I have a lot of trouble getting straight answers here. No, you did not. “An evolutionary biologist” is not an answer. Now, I would suspect that his advisor would have been Bill Wimsatt, who’s a philosopher of science, not a biologist. I can’t think of an evolutionary biologist at UC who would have been his advisor. But I could be wrong*. Do you actually know who his advisor was?

*Now that I think on it, Leigh Van Valen would have been a possibility; he would do any weird thing just for the fun of it.

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@Eddie is an interesting case study. He has no problem with common descent, and doesn’t actually endorse any specific ID arguments. To his credit, he even freely admits he can’t follow the science.

Still, he really like the ID movement. I think he feels they are unfairly treated and ignored. Having them more fairly treated, independent of any the actual details of what they say, has been a consistent goal of his.

@eddie, what exactly are you hoping for here? Many words exchanged. Not much progress.

And of course I told you that it was Leigh van Valen, above, when I originally described Nelson. So it’s not that you have trouble getting straight answers from me, but that you miss some of them. :slight_smile:

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Oops, sorry. My bad.

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Do you mean “here”, in this particular discussion, or “here”, on Peaceful Science? If it’s the latter, the question is more, “What were you hoping for from my presence here?” since you invited me to sign up and contribute to the discussions. :smile:

I do like the ID movement, not so much for any detailed accomplishments (I don’t necessarily agree with many of the arguments and conclusions in ID writings), as for its habit of playing the Socratic gadfly to the certainties of our era. I always tend to see more uncertainty than certainty in any theoretical endeavor, and I tend to be suspicious of scientists or scholars who write about their fields as if they have the matter all sewn up and as if anyone who doubts the mainstream view is a kook or a charlatan. Thus, to me, even if ID utterly fails in its attempt to create a science of intelligent design detection, it has performed a valuable social service by opening up a national (and even international) debate over evolution, over methodological assumptions in science, over the relationship between metaphysics and science, which is salutary.

I like having you here.

The ID advocacy is tiresome because you tend to be very very repetitive and circular. It is out side your field, so you have a hard time adjudicating the scientific arguments yourself. You want ID people to be treated fairly. I agree with you on that. This is just not you at your best.

Your contributions on theology of nature and such are much more helpful. I’ve learned lot from you, and I think you’ve even recently shifted me on some important points. I wish you focused on that part. I could learn a lot from you. That is why I like having you here.

Can we get back religious scholar @eddie? I like him a lot better than repetitive ID @eddie.

I do not see anyone doing that here.

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And I digress. I meant here i this discussion. I’m not questioning you being here in general :slight_smile:.

This is quite an interesting charge, since I have very rarely, if ever, set forth any of ID’s scientific arguments here, or defended them. You have not seen me restate Behe’s argument about the blood clotting cascade, or Dembski’s arguments using the Explanatory Filter, or Meyer’s argument based on the chicken-and-egg problem of the protein-DNA system, or Sewell’s argument regarding the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

I have sometimes corrected people when they have misstated what ID is about, or what ID people have said, e.g., if they have said that ID requires supernatural interventions, or that Behe does not accept common descent, or that Discovery wanted the Dover Trial, or the like. But I can’t recall defending any of the scientific arguments put forward by ID folks for design in nature. There would be no point, since I know in advance that none of the professional biologists here will accept them, and the arguments have been rehearsed many times elsewhere.

Perhaps you are thinking more of my mentions of alternate evolutionary models, such as those of Shapiro and the Altenberg people. But those people are not ID supporters, though they are critics of some mainstream evolutionary theories, and sometimes along the same lines as ID people. I can’t help it if non-ID evolutionary theorists happen to share some criticism of conventional evolutionary theory with ID folks.

In any case, to please you, I will redouble my efforts to keep ID arguments for design out of sight.

I am left wondering, though, what the point of these discussions are, if every proposal for change in evolutionary thinking is rejected. ID, we are told, is bad science. Turner’s book, I am told by one person who has skimmed half of it and others who haven’t read it, is bad science. Shapiro’s book, I am told, is the work of a “nut” or at best overclaiming. The Third Way, I’m told, is an irrelevant movement. Wagner, one person has said, may be a mainstream evolutionary theorist, but I don’t think that person would say that if he thought Wagner was a structuralist. So basically, the only evolutionary mechanisms accepted here are – what? Variation, mutation, selection, drift, and occasional accidents such as horizontal gene transfer or endosymbiosis? Or more generally, all the non-teleological mechanisms are OK, but everything that might even hint of teleology is barred? So all attempts to relate evolution to religious faith must proceed from the assumption that evolution is non-teleological? That would rule out a good number of options for science-faith harmonization that many Christians might prefer. Or is Peaceful Science open to the possibility that evolution is teleological? And if so, what versions of teleological evolution might be allowed here, and not immediately rejected as bad science?

I don’t accuse Turner of bad science. I have not read his book, so I can’t judge that. All I have said, is that I have not been persuaded that his book is worth my time.

I can’t really judge whether Shapiro is a nut. From my perspective, the main issue is that he overstates what he has. I actually see it as a good thing to be talking about intelligence in the cell, but best to not overstate it.

That’s how it seems to me.

If I think back to 25 years ago, where I was following discussions on usenet, it was more Darwinist than what I see now. Larry Moran was favoring neutral evolution, but not many others were. It seems to me that a lot has changed over the last 25 years. There has been a move away from selection. What the “Third Way” wanted to accomplish is happening anyway. That’s why it is irrelevant.

As for teleology, we have had some discussion here in the topic Do heat seeking missiles have teleology, and it quickly became clear that people disagree about what teleology is. So avoiding the term is probably still wise practice for scientists.

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@swamidass, as soon as i read this first sentence i knew Eddie would take you all on a long rollercoaster narrative ride…

That is exactly what I said. You aren’t advocating anything specific but the generic idea we should take them serious, all while we do take them seriously.

We are inviting key principles from ID to engage here, taking them seriously. What more could you ask for?

That’s not the issue. It is circular repetition. I’m probably over sensitive to it though…

Peaceful Science is not where scientific thought is usually going to change. Public debate is not how that happens.

That being said, in one place we did change thinking, on Adam and Eve. If other good opportunities come up of course we will give it shot, but only if the science checks out. The reason most things fail is because they are scientifically flawed.

Have you ever wondered how we won in the science of Adam?

I’ve explained several times that evolution is certainly teleological. So I am not avoiding any hint of teleology. I’m embracing it, while rejecting bad arguments for it.

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At the risk of misinterpreting @swamidass, let me describe in additional detail the distinction he briefly references:

  1. Theologically speaking, our understanding of Evolution is Teleological (and thus the theological phrase I use, God-Governed Evolution).

  2. Scientifically speaking, Science says nothing on design (hence our universal rejection of the ID idea that science can detect either God’s operation or God’s design).

  1. However, the personal or subjective observation that nature seems designed is something that a person can interpret as a justification for God.
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Also, I reached out to Turner. He is going to do an office hours with us. So thanks for that suggestion. A far more direct way of getting to his ideas on things.

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I believe you take them seriously, Joshua. I’m not sure that every biologist posting comments here does so.

I have not complained about PS on this score. In fact, I have praised you for defending Gauger when she was mistreated on BioLogos. It was probably your behavior in that situation that caused me to accept your invitation to come here. Certainly it was a major factor.

Again, Joshua, I’m addressing everyone here, and all the silent reading audience, not just you. I register your open-mindedness, and appreciate it. But you have often spoken of “mainstream science” or “mainstream evolutionary science”. I don’t think you can look with eyes fully opened at evolutionary theory as it is carried out at most universities and research institutes, and say that any significant number of “mainstream” theorists have affirmed that evolution is teleological.

I don’t think that even many of the dissenters (Altenberg group, Third Way group) will affirm that evolution is teleological, in the sense that term is normally meant (i.e., directed, either internally or externally, toward desired ends), and still less is there any hope that warriors like Jerry Coyne or Eugenie Scott or Nick Matzke or P.Z. Myers or Dan Dennett will say that evolution is teleological. Maybe Simon Conway Morris will tiptoe in the vicinity of such a statement in his remarks on “convergence”, but I don’t think even he has been very precise about how far convergence indicates teleology.

Remember that the language of “unguided and purposeless” appeared in the earlier edition of Ken Miller’s textbook, and in some statements by national bodies of US biology teachers, etc. It was later taken out of such statements – quite consciously for political reasons, rather than because suddenly all US biology teachers or scientists had changed their minds about how evolution worked – but the fact that it was in there in the first place indicates that the general conception of evolution was non-teleological.

Certainly all the presentations of evolution I read in books written by scientists, as I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s, were clearly non-teleological. And while the discussion of evolutionary mechanisms has grown more complex since then, I don’t see any major change on the question of teleology – except among scientists who are thought of as “fringe” by the mainstream. All of the “new mechanisms” with which neo-Darwinism has been supplemented – drift, horizontal gene transfer, endosymbiosis, etc. – easily fit into the non-teleological framework of the earlier Modern Synthesis. And those new mechanisms or new insights that might contain hints of teleology – Shapiro’s self-engineered organisms or Turner’s characterization of life as “desiring” – have generally been looked upon with suspicion, or, as we see in the case of Coyne’s review of Turner, openly mocked. So I don’t see teleological thinking as having any significant tenure in current theorizing.

So my remark was not a criticism of you, but an attempt to give a realistic portrayal of the landscape of opinion among “mainstream” evolutionary scientists.

An excellent move, Joshua! More efficient by far than relying on a summary of his thought from a third party. I look forward to it.

I agree that evolution looks unguided an purposeless from a scientific point of view.

Atheists will think it is unguided and purposeless, period. Christians like me, without challenging what science says, hold that it is teleological. What the textbooks say is not relevant.

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