But if you look further north, the Kaibab limestone is overlain by the Moenkopi, Chinle, Moenave, Keyenta, Navajo, Temple Cap, Carmel and Dakota strata.
The Kaibab may be the top layer in some locations, but it is not the top layer everywhere.
Why did you not mention the rest of the “Grand staircase”? Did you not know it exists? Did you think we wouldn’t know it exists?
AND
You guys have me in a tough spot. It’s my role to facilitate discussion and help others find Common Ground. You are well aware of my opinions, but sometimes I have to set my personal wants aside and be a moderator. Scott has made some positive changes, and I mean to treat him fairly and equally . No one has to agree with anyone else, but I hope that we might talk TO each other, rather than AT each other.
Dan, Scott is leading with a handle that says that I and others are dishonest. Not much TO in that.
Yep. You are right, and I’m almost certainly wrong. Welcome to moderationville.
Since I have become the topic of discussion, I will step aside and ask another mod to keep an eye on this thread.
This is a difficult week to pay a lot of attention to moderation, but I’ll give it a shot.
Yes, Scott has chosen a handle that is abrasive and immediately combative. However, let’s at least aim for civil discussion.
Great point. what is above Kaibab is a whole other discussion. My point maybe better said is that if there is a top layer even if My body was buried there and was fossilized you cant include that in the geology of time suggesting it was in between Kaibab and Moenkopi…
My point from the beginning is that land animals do not live in water and that all of the world was under water. And now, if you find land animals in sediment. Opps Huston we have a problem It means there is an extinction event. When you see trees in some cases going through layers you can guess that there was enough water to cover the tree but not uproot the tree and that sediment fairly quickly encased the tree. its that sort of event I would say that causes animals to get caught up in sediment. That could be a local flood or a Global flood.
The Original point was that Someone in the bible wrote that the whole world was under water. Chapter 1 of genesis. I find it amazing they would even conceive of such a thought but the grand Canyon shows it.
Your point is fantastic as well because, well. some how living things got caught up in water which do not live in water. You would be better than anyone to parse out if there was a flood and if these same layers are found around the world. The whole thing is very interesting
A lot of fossils from land animals are contained in sediments that were deposited on, or very close to, land. River and lakes contain sediments too, and land animal remains can get trapped in that.
Animal parts can also be swept out to sea in rivers or by nearshore currents.
Land animals can be buried in water borne sediment apart from flooding, such as foraging in water and crossing rivers, but local flooding is common.
British Columbia has just been hit by historically devastating floods. Livestock of over a thousand hogs and hundreds of cows drowned. Floods generally consist of slurries of entrapping mud, trees, and vegetation. These happen every year. Off the top of my head, recently in Hawaii, India, Japan, China, Australia [watch out for spiders], Egypt [watch out for scorpions], and Germany have made international news. Together with more limited local events, floods have basically happened all over. I can imagine in a million years some dude who goes by Evolution_is_a_Hoax coming along and pointing to evidence of floods over the past few decades and saying, there it is, proof of Noah’s flood - the whole world was under water..
Why?
You’re not saying it any better.
Were they alive when deposited by water? How would you know?
No, I don’t see that, but I’m looking at a bigger picture than you are.
No, it shows the opposite. That’s why you were trying to pass off the Shinumo “Quartzite” as the entire Grand Canyon.
Have you considered changing your handle to one that doesn’t accuse me and others of being dishonest, Scott?
You don’t have to shout. You have just confused life with shells with bones. Not a good start.
A good point but of limited applicability. What you’re talking about is an intrusive burial. These do happen occasionally but they aren’t the rule. And they also leave evidence: you can detect the hole, even if it’s been filled in. This is in no way relevant to @roy’s point.
It’s a silly point. Nobody ever said that land animals live in water, and the time in which all the world may have been under water (there are few records to examine) was billions of years before there were any animals at all.
No, for many reasons. First, there are many terrestrial sediments. (Fresh water sediments count, by the way.) Second, sedimentation is not particularly concentrated in extinction events.
That person was wrong, and the Grand Canyon doesn’t show it. At no time during the formation of the Grand Canyon sediments was the whole world underwater.
By the way, if evolution is a hoax, who are the hoaxers? Am I one of the hoaxers or am I a dupe?
Well at the time, the grand canyon was not the grand canyon… It was thousands of feet lower without that serious crack in the ground a mile deep. Before the upheaval to have sediment there had to be water over it. I think its pretty expected if you drop the USA a few thousand feet down to get the area we call the grand canyon and the “grand staircase” under water to lay that sediment it would displace some magma and space in the sphere of the earth meaning the oceans would rise. And at some point, the USA would be lower than the top of the ocean. Ergo sediments.
Fun fact, Mt Everest rises 2cm per year in 6000 years alone that is 12000 cm. which would be 400 ft. A lot of land would be under water if continents dropped 400 ft. And since Chili has uplift in some places where they say some 70 ft raised in just a year. (not lately) but at some point You can imagine that everything could go higher or lower.
And since that white wall in the grand stair case can be seen over in England in sediment layers and around the world in different places there is obviously a intercontinental sediment layer. you might call a layer by a different name but if a coal deposit is the same on several continents it suggests they all had a similar fate at some point. ergo each land mass being more than 400 ft lower than today. which would likely put the oceans up at least a 100 ft so a total of 500 ft displaces. (just throwing numbers around…
No, I am not saying a nonconformity or localized event out of sink with a major event is Noahs flood. But when you have sediment layers that span hundreds of thousands of square KM’s its more than a local flood. It could be a flooding of all the grass lands in North America caused by a ice age… Or before that from a blocked river. OR from a massive erosion of a stream opening up as the grand canyon was uplifted causing hundreds of thousands of KM’s of sediment to wash away from above the grand canyon through that crack creating the Delta at the sea AND leaving a huge “grand staircase” which is sediment that would have previously been above the top layer Kiabab the top of the grand canyon.
No, it’s this discussion. You said the Kaibab limestone was the top layer. It isn’t.
That’s a completely different point. You don’t seem to know what your argument is.
Have you never heard of hippos? Sea snakes?
Clearly it doesn’t, since land animals often die and get buried in rivers and marshes and lake beds, sometimes in large numbers, without the entire species going extinct.
Of course. There are several periods in which the area was underwater, and several periods in which it was not. The point is that at none of these times was the entire world underwater. And your ideas of what causes sea level change, or subsidence, or uplift, are geologically absurd.
That just isn’t true. The only resemblance between the White Cliffs of the Grand Staircase (only a part of the staircase) and the White Cliffs of Dover is that they’re both white. They aren’t the same age, they aren’t made of the same sediments. This is not a subject you know anything about, and you’re only embarrassing yourself.
I assume when you are standing on land right where that big horse shoe extends out into the grand canyon that land you are standing on is Kaibab. What I am saying is if you follow that rock layer you will not find any bones of land animals below that.
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Sure miles away the area is very complex there are many layers above that but not where you are standing. All that was washed away even though supposedly those layers were laid down over hundreds of millions of years.
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I would argue that its more likely that everything under your feet was settled and everything over Kaibab was likely just deposited maybe on a year or a few years before there was a massive out rush of water possibly the uplift that caused the grand canyon and then it drained north America as it pushed out of the sea.
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I am suggesting the whole of the grand staircase all of it was under water. So no animals were living to be buried… And what was buried, the fossil record above Kaibab is Likely only one event over a year or two or 10 depositing all those species and then after some settling All of north America was pushed up taking the whole of the grand staircase above sea level.
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I would speculate if you went into the delta of the Colorado and dug down you would find all of that sediment with bones in it. BUT the problem is, how . HOW could Animals be stuck in such a massive under water sediment. It means likely that there was some land where these animals did live and that it was plunged under water. It means a lot of technician plate movement. So there had to be land above water to have animals that would be in the sediment which was plunged under water. To suggest that land thousands of feet above sea level had a flood seems impossible. Its more plausible The Animals were living above when the land was pulled out of the water the first time.
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I think there is proof of this sort of up and down motion all around the world in soft recently laid sediment.
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Back to my first point. the world was under water and I will add it was under water 2 times at least. AND I will add that this event the bible talks about , the days of Peleg when the earth divided, is likely a massive tectonic shift moving land hundreds of miles over a few hundred years. Thats what it looks like to me and I think the bible agrees with that. They leave out a lot of details but in generalities for people who could not see the whole world its pretty amazing.
True. Those layers are older than the first animals that evolved bones.
True. The geology of the area suggests there were once layers above the Kaibab in the grand canyon area, and that they’ve been eroded away.
You can argue that if you like, but it doesn’t fit with the nature of the rocks either below the Kaibab in the Grand Canyon area, or above it elsewhere.
I disagree based on the available geological evidence, which I appear to know more about than you do.
I’d recommend looking at the actual characteristics of the rocks around the Grand Canyon and basing your arguments on that, rather than simply making claims about rocks based on preconceptions.
Nothing you have said there is true. It betrays a massive ignorance of geology. One could go through it point by point, but it seems that you aren’t listening.
You are confused about the nature of the Grand Canyon sediments. There are several terrestrial layers. See Fossils - Grand Canyon National Park (U.S. National Park Service) for example:
None of these has any bones of land vertebrates (but then again, neither does the Kaibab). However, the Coconino Sandstone has many tracks made by land vertebrates.
Hi Scott,
Based on our observations of flooding and sediments today, it generally takes more than a lifetime–indeed, a lot more than a lifetime–to form a single layer of sentiment.
You hypothesize that the sedimentary rock in the Grand Canyon is the result of a single flood event in a single year. How can we test this hypothesis scientifically? Generally, the way we compare a hypothesis with competing hypotheses is…
The problem I see in your presentation so far is that your flood predictions are not unique to a global flood scenario. For example, the fact that fossilization typically occurs in wet sediment does not help us here, because such fossilization could occur in a large number of scenarios, only one of which is a global flood. Do you see how an appeal to fossilization wet conditions does not necessarily lead to an affirmation of a recent, global flood?
What could help us distinguish global flood predictions from the standard geology predictions? To me, it looks like the following are good candidates:
Would you like my view of why these would make predictions that could distinguish between YEC and old earth hypotheses?
What do you think a YEC model would predict for each of these categories of evidence?
Thanks,
Chris Falter