Geneological Geology

Some of them are. Others are not. There are Cambrian animals with bones, e.g. Anatolepis. There are even land animals with bones as early as the Devonian. This is hard to talk about because your correspondent constantly switches among land animals, animals with bones, land animals with bones, etc.

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Here else should you expect to find fossils, if not in sediments? :wink:

Flood Geology is an often rehashed argument that is not even self consistent, as well documented in many sources. Here is one, “The Defeat of Flood Geology by Flood Geology”. [PDF]

If we ignore all those inconsistencies, there still remain difficulties with time, the laws of physics, the problem of heat, and a bit of heresy.


So trying to justify long term laying down of sediments I have to some how get animals out into sediment some how… I cant see it. maybe in just local areas with mud slides but the amount of sediment around the world is far more extensive than localized flooding. But how could you have 13 layers with fossils in each meaning land animals and or fish and clams etc. happening above water. Either there is 13 dunks or wash outs of animals on land or One big one with different things settling out. Or maybe there was a progressive flood getting worse and worse wiping out a few things at a time… I have never had anyone explain how these got there with fossils in them. I means walking through how it happened. Having 13 sedimentary layers in the ocean, no problem but as soon as you include land animals It means they have to be swept off their feet or forced into the record… That would mean putting them into a situation to get them into drowning… Or some shark-nato sort of event.
Its easy to explain under Kaibab above it. Not so easy. Maybe you have an explanation?

I am confused most of the time, so it doesn’t surprise me. LoL From a year long sinus infection a viral infection from visiting my son, arthritis in my knee, hip shoulder neck fingers and arm, some days I cant tell if I am coming or going.
All I know and it aint much is that what is in the grand canyon is entirely different than what is above those layers by an astronomical amount. And you can find dinosaur bones above the grand canyon in layers almost top to bottom along with shells and who know what.

It depends on the type of sediment (naturally). Fossils of seas creatures tend to accumulation on oceans beds. Here are some recent photos of fossils in Kaibab limestone, corals, brachiopods, sponges, crinoids, tube worms, bryozoans:

More commonly, sea creatures are too small or shells too shattered to see by eye. The Redwall limestone represents many millions of years of deposits of shells, 500 to 1000 feet thick (photo: looking down the Redwall into Hermit canyon).
Google Photos

Fossils of land animals are rare - you are right about that. Most dead creatures are scavenged or scattered, or not deposited when they might be preserved. Water might be involved, but not always. Here are fossil footprints in Coconino sandstone (near Dripping Sping),
Google Photos
and another set of tracks in the Hermit formation.
Google Photos
Land fossils are sometimes found in mud banks, like the well known quarry at Dinosaur National Monument. Water is definitely involved here!
Other examples might include flood plains where a large flood might deposit a lot of sediment in yearly floods, or swamps and bogs where conditions favor preservations (lots of fossil leaf imprints in coal beds).

There a lot of information available about the geology of the Grand Canyon and the American Southwest - MUCH more that I could hope to show you. The whole region is a geologist’s playground. There is plenty of great material if you look for it. I was mostly jonesing to show off my CG photos. :wink:

A good book on the subject is:
and at least one of the authors are occasional contributors here - you could ask them questions. :slight_smile:
CC: @davidson


What you know, unfortunately, is not true. Dinosaur bones are found in Mesozoic sediments, and mostly terrestrial ones. The only Mesozoic part of the Grand Canyon is the Kaibab Limestone, and it’s of course marine. Above that, in the Grand Staircase, are Mesozoic, mostly terrestrial sediments. Of course that’s where dinosaur bones are found. There was a huge mass extinction at the end of the Permian period, which accounts for much of the difference before and after. Trilobites, for example, entirely disappeared.


So a couple things. If there is footprints but no bones or fossils to go with them it proves the fossil record does not reflect what was living at the time that sediment was laid down.
Secondly, I cant believe Redwall was laid down slowly. That level of consistency cant happen over a millions of years. So, whats wrong with volcanoes and sediment coming from the sky over lets say 2 years.
Basically we have no volcanoes rolling out material. But clearly in the past both the ocean floor and the mountains of volcanoes ran like a tap left on. its that sort of hard downpour that makes a rusty color not calm seas and beach tours. An Ice age could create a lot of gravel but that level of sediment is exceptional I cant see it being made over millions of years…
And I accept what is in the fossil record. How it got there and its time line is my issue. And how it is used to create a false narrative of evolution. Suggesting that Dinosaur bones above sea shells means the sea shells came first is bad science. footprints in layers where there is zero bones proves it. And you provided that proof.

I don’t think the Young Earth Creationists have a exact science. And i know they are working from a bias as is everyone. Some more than others.
But like I said earlier in the thread, if there are footprints in a sediment layer but no bones, while it might only show ocean sediment and fine fossils other things were living that had bones and the ability to walk.
And half the fossil record has the same materials in it. its not definitive of anything but that for the most part all of it was under water at some time. So in some ways Creationists are on the money, but some of the time lines are off and everyone has the the “how” wrong.
I personally believe there is evidence the world has been around a long time, but I also believe God made it, and that Life is not accidents but intentionally planned and beautiful. DNA does not have the decision making ability to decide to put your eye brows on top of your eyes or to put a ear or eye together. That takes a lot of engineering and purpose driven evolution. The same goes for Worms turning into butterflies. That is not evolution that is showing off.
But I do believe in Science, I believe in DNA in rocks in sediment and continental drift. I just came to different conclusions. And my main point. If there is sediment all around the world the same layers, then all of it was under water. And that is provable 8 days a week.

I’m sorry again. You just spout nonsense. What you can or can’t believe is not relevant, given your complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject. You are right about one thing, though, sort of:

The fossil record is by no means perfect or complete, even in single localities. Preservation is biased in many ways, and differently in different sorts of sediments. Some sediments preserve bones, others preserve tracks. There’s a whole field of paleontology that studies this sort of thing, called taphonomy. You might look it up.

You also need to find out how strata are correlated and dated (two different things). It’s not just based on what’s above what in any particular spot.

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Hi Scott,

I thought you might actually be interested in thinking about the question of how to evaluate the geological evidence in an organized and scientific way. But so far you seem uninterested in that approach. I want to give you another chance.

Good scientific theories are able to provide answers to difficult questions. If you are unable to respond to these questions, I will be forced to conclude that the YEC approach has no scientific value.


You’re right - I should have said that most of those layers are older than animals with bones.

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So this Hamerism doesn’t work? :): “millions of dead things buried by water all over the world”

Or “there are flood stories from all over the world”

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Thank you for this, it helps me understand you better. Based on your handle I had taken you to be YEC. Most others here will too. It wouldn’t hurt to remind folks you are not YEC when related topics come up. :slight_smile:

Life is beautiful, no doubt about it. Belief that God created life is OK to. Where you will get an argument is claims that science prove God, or proves that God created life, etc… Science requires material evidence, and cannot answer questions about an immaterial God. This is where most disagreements with YEC arise, because they make specific claims about science proving various acts of God.

OK. The real test is, given new evidence or better understanding of the evidence you know, would you consider changing your mind? You don’t have to answer that. What I mean to point out is the difference between faith - believing without (or despite) evidence - and the consideration of evidence in a scientific manner separately from faith.

You can have it both ways. A YEC would tell you otherwise, but a great many scientists are also people of faith and understand this distinction. Many atheists understand this too, though some may be reluctant to admit it.

OK, we clearly disagree here, but I’m not following your argument well enough to know how to begin an answer. Maybe we can narrow this down to more specific questions?

I should also admit my limitations - I’m a statistician, not a geologist or evolutionary biologist. I can help some of the easier questions, but for the harder one you can Google and read as well or better than I can. We do have some subject experts here who might help.

Some misconceptions here and I’m not sure where to begin. Limestone comes the shells of living creatures, not volcanos. Ocean creatures could not possibly lay down that much sediment in a year or two, or even 10,000 years.

I don’t understand why you believe this must have happened so quickly. I don’t want to argue with you when I don’t even understand what you really mean. :slight_smile:


you made me laugh. So that was worth it today.
You say, You" will be forced to conclude" thats very official ! LoL… I find that very funny/cute. I have learned things from these discussions.
My original view is still true. The whole world was under water… But the discussion about footprints has made me consider that while the fossil record does not have bones in it, all kinds of reptiles and who knows what could be living but not represented in the fossil record.

The sediment was obviously wet for these footprints to have been preserved and further sediment was applied on top later, how later I don’t know… But I think that it is likely these layers of ocean or lake then have been over taken by a huge deluge or many while land masses bobbed. At some point the bobbed enough to wipe out the dinosaurs in a long strung out list of sedimentary layers above Kaibab.

I am not a Young Earth Creationist. I am a Creationist not a Evolutionist. Meaning the progressive evolution of one species to others. I don’t see that reflected in the sediment Or in the species we have living today. I think they say the exact opposite. If then and now there is a aligator or turtle or fish and now there is similar it only shows variation within existing DNA but not evolution.
Those footprints only prove that the fine fossils found , fauna were existing while footed animals existed.
Fossil records only provide a record of what was there and died in an event not what was there.
I think this discussion helped cause I could see that it wasn’t about development of species but about where the layers were at the time. What I mean is, likely those layers with footprints were West of the grand canyon in the ocean where some places were close to the surface and some species walked on the mud. And it gave us a snap shot of that event. But it did not reflect a evolutionary step. It says to me the fossil record is not at all a progressive set of snap shots of evolution at all.
My biggest issue is trying to conceive of what the world would have looked like and how they would have survived at all. IF those mountains were thousands of feet lower most of the USA would be under water and we wouldn’t have the continents we have today. it would have looked totally different and I find it hard to put myself into that Old earth atmosphere to evaluate what is in the fossil record.
While I have thought about these things, I think this discussion has really helped me to dive deep. to think about things like those footprints in more depth.
So you all have had an effect on me. Its maybe not what you wanted but it is helpful.

On a bit of another topic. I have some interest in Gold. The nuggets you see across the world in Australia and in California and in the Yukon… When its found in sand like Australia I have to question how such a heavy Item could be suspended in Soil and not at the bottom. its a invader. I am suspecting that some of that gold came from the sky. Maybe I am wrong. But I think it may tie in to where all this sediment came from. 60 tones of cosmic dust falls to earth every day.
I don’t know how accurate this is but I found this statement by a guy:
"Each year the earth gains about 40k tons of extraterrestrial material! On the other hand, every year we lose about 50k of hydrogen that gets blown off into space! Overall, therefore, we lose about 10k of weight every single year.

Although this sounds a lot, in 100,000 years this amounts to only 0.000000001% of the total weight of Earth. Earth is already pretty big, you see, so adding or subtracting such small amounts isn’t very significant."

I am a Novice. I would say in all things. So while I accept an ice age and tidal forces and volcanoes can make a lot of sand and dirt and that now with so many plants its possible to work the soil pretty fast, the amount of soil and sediment, sand and gold found out of place seems to be past what my mind can conceive. Is it possible that these meteor showers came with Trillions of Kg. of dust that the sky were unlivable that as the planet turned it literally rolled in a shower of dust causing extinction or magnetic shifts in land mass and maybe some of that dust was water. Why does everything coming in the shape of a comet or meteor have to be dry ? Maybe that is partly the explanation of why there is these consistent planet wide sediment layers in some cases. And why gold shows up like that.

there is several flood stories. I think that is very true.

Could those Tracks be made by a Red Gumard Fish.

The only people I have ever heard argue for a recent, global flood are young earth creationists. Hence my confusion about your stance. I offer my sincere apologies for the misunderstanding.

You do seem interested in the Grand Canyon, which is a good thing. My wife and I recently visited, and found it such a mind-blowing experience. In conjunction with the hike and overlooks, we found this book, The Grand Canyon, Monument to an Ancient Earth: Can Noah’s Flood Explain the Grand Canyon?, to be extremely helpful. Its wonderful illustrations and binding make it a worthwhile coffee table book. Check it out, and I think you’ll agree.

Have a blessed Advent,

Chris Falter

I am having a rough day today. I have been sick for a year with sinus infection and something wrong in my neck. 5 antibiotics later, dizzy, loss of capacity generally, tired etc. Oh boy.
Since I cant work I either sit and do nothing and stare into space or try to do something.
To answer about God. Not that its part of sorting out the deck of cards played here, but I believe we can accept past interventions as real even if we did not experience them. knowing peoples argument, to boil it down, some complain and say God seems to deal with frivolous things but lets children burn alive in a house fire… And my response is true, God doesn’t from our perspective perform. But He does save people from things but how could you know if he didn’t sign his name to it. Your being here could be part of a butterfly effect causing a change that will end up saving a child in Africa from Aids… If God has acted in clandestine ways then there is no science or tracking of it.
But as a rule I believe the events in the bible are references we can trust.
On a Science basis, I think a temporary universe in an infinite time line needs by necessity the ability to have something there for infinity for something to exist now in the temporary. I think its an impossibility for something to come from an absolute nothing… Stop. So something has to have always for infinity existed. It means there is more science to be known. Maybe pressure does depressurize and things unwind and potential goes flat and heat loses its vibration, but for it to exist in the first place something would have to have always existed.
Its that something that Blob that evidence, that building block, Christians Call God. Always existing never created. We are Created. It , beyond the temporary universe or a version of it has had to continually existed for infinity. Thats a whole other thread.
calcium carbonate, if its organic, then I would hazard a guess it would mean there must have been something organic living. I have no problem with that. That can fit in a Biblical model in generalities, not that it has too but it does.
The reason there is conflict is because some Baptists for example will read the first two chapters like its an exact wording when there is not enough in those words to tell even a portion of the events taking place. Proof of this is the 8th chapter talking about the flood. It says waters came up from the deep… OK. well that is fine but it doesn’t say a whole lot. Its sort of a simple statement and a generality. They will take it to mean nothing else can happen. Aliens could be holding a party, a sun could have exploded, Elvis could have been transported through time to sing for Noah… Just cause they mention one thing doesn’t mean they didn’t leave out Elvis. All of it is brush strokes.
Moses has some guy write Genesis and they say, that God Took a rib out of Adam… It doesn’t say how much, it could have been a biopsy. And it doesn’t say how he created eve. It sounds to me like Intentional interference of how the whole reproduction of mankind happens. It sounds more like Aliens coming down and creating a species than a magic wand. there is no HOW. Everyone talks about Why and Who. I want to know HOW. its not listed.
I believe in Creation. I believe that God created things. But it does not say HOW. You need a cell to have DNA . the chicken and the egg. You need the vehicle to hold the cell. A virus for example will not evolve to live outside the cell to then live outside the body and then become a worm, then a horse then a Dinosaur in a chain of events. Doing deep dives over the years on it, Each time I come up with, master stroke, irreducible complexity at every level.
Anyways, I have no problem with a fossil record and I think it shows everything was under water as the bible says which is impossible to know. Its perfectly Scientific. Which is heavier. Rock or Water. The fact we are above water is shocking… Maybe God has a stick propped between china and the USA and a could others to hold us all above water. Maybe people are not aware that Rock is heavier than water. But they wouldn’t have grasped that back when the chapters of Genesis were being written. So I find it interesting they knew of how things were before they existed. And we are just thinking we know now.

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yes. Noahs Flood is just an event. Its not all the events. The Grand canyon shows sediment from being under the water. I believe that is from the beginning before Noahs Flood. I think the real question is where in the grand stair case does the flood show itself. Is it possible the whole of it, which some assume Or maybe the top half above Kaibab? I think its an event after Kaibab and that the Uplift of tectonic plates cracked open a way for water to leave the continent as it lifted up going against the lay of the land now. There are to many details in the 10’s of thousands around the world to flesh out. I see no reason to disagree with multiple accounts of written history.

As I got into really digging into the history and various stances, I was blown away with how many options there are beyond the most popular ones. @Joel_Duff’s site (and now YT channel) is a great place to see some of the intricacies of past YEC perspectives. I’ve shared this before, but @kkeathley’s paper about the changes in YECism is truly insightful as to the massive changes within a certain paradigm.

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