General YEC discussion

Hi PD,

You are citing a headline written by a journalist, not the original paper (Yonggang Nie, Fuwen Wei, 2014). I went into the footnotes of the paper cited by @Timothy_Horton a couple of days ago (Nie and Wei, 2019) and found a citation to a paper from 2015 by the same authors. Here is a link to that paper on Oxford Academic. This is what Nie and Wei say:

modern giant pandas still retains the ability to feed on meat as observed often in captivity and very occasionally in the wild.

I think it’s worth mentioning…

I agree with this insofar as “historical” incorporates the cultural embeddings of the time and place of the original audience.

Thanks for listening,
Chris

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Why do you always cite words, usually from non experts, instead of the evidence, @PDPrice? How can you so strenuously avoid the evidence yourself while falsely claiming that you YECs are merely interpreting the same evidence differently?

Do you not see the obviousness of your avoidance of evidence?

My only point with mentioning pandas at all was to emphasize the fact that just because something has sharp, carnivore-looking teeth does not mean it has to eat meat. Fruit bats also have very sharp teeth.

In PD’s defense, Science is usually a reliable source of science journalism. And the panda’s diet is well over 90% bamboo in the wild, so the Science article is not outrageously wrong.

Best,
Chris

It’s still wrong, and the truth is perfectly consistent with the predictions of evolutionary theory, and PD very predictably leapt to choose words over evidence.

I don’t see how someone can make claims about how groups of people interpret evidence while avoiding evidence in favor of hearsay himself.

There’s a lot of room for subjectivity when you try to discern all of that data. It’s not in Scripture, which means you are putting outside information alongside Scripture. Yet Scripture teaches us that Scripture is the final authority. I’m not disagreeing that culture is relevant, because it clearly is, but I think many theological liberals go off the rails in overplaying the cultural aspect to the detriment of the plain meaning of the text.

Note that the panda’s teeth have actually accumulated adaptations over the past 8 million years to assist their mostly-bamboo diet. From the same paper in Oxford Academic:

So their teeth, while not like those of the horse or elephant, are not like the tiger’s either.

You should read the paper, I think you would find it quite fascinating. It reviews several different mutations in the panda genome, including pseudogenes, that are reflected in its unique morpology and behavior.

Best,
Chris Falter

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Cats require taurine from their diet as their bodies manufacture it a too low a level to live. Taurine can only be obtained from eating animals. Cats were not eating plants before the Fall or we would not have cat “kind” today.

https://www.petmd.com/cat/conditions/cardiovascular/c_ct_taurine_deficiency

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Great! I see we are in agreement.

Actually, it is. That’s why culture is relevant. If culture were not in the Scripture, it would not be relevant.

Best,
Chris

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Well the problem is that a great deal of the animal kingdom, with representation from mammals, insects, birds, reptiles, and sea life, is clearly designed, bow to stern, to feed off other creatures. That goes against your systematic theology which is based on your understanding of the perspicuity of scripture. This is what happens when tidy doctrine meets uncooperative nature. You can hold fast, but the price is that as soon as you step out of the echo chamber of the like minded, the world stops making sense.

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Explain how it goes against my theology.

This also refutes the claim the cat “kind” was kept alive on the Ark for a year with no supply of fresh meat.

Darn those pesky scientific details! :wink:

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In your theology, God originally creating meat eaters is contrary to God’s original plan.

Where did you demonstrate that God originally created meat eaters before the Fall?

Do you have any links to any good YEC models for creation of meat eaters after the Fall? Like, is it a rapid evolutionary adaptation? Was it de novo creation of those species or a de novo creation of those physical characteristics? Since the consumption of meat is such a widespread phenomena (I’m thinking worms and bacteria as well as fish and mammals) it really would be a rather radical “intervention”, right?

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I didn’t. What is your take on a post fall creation?

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It’s either a supernatural intervention on a large scale at the time of the Fall, or else it was an in-built capacity (according to God’s foreknowledge) that was only ‘triggered’ after the Fall as a result of the way God’s direct presence on earth was suddenly withdrawn at that point.

I can’t think of a particular reason why the first option would necessarily follow from the Fall. I don’t see a theological reason why animals would need to be included in the curse. Only the serpent and Adam & Eve were specifically cursed by God, why would all the animals (which were created de novo so they don’t share in Adam’s lineage or sin) need to die?

The second option seems more compatible theologically/textually, but that also seems a bit weird if God created animals with the ability to kill and eat each other, but then plans on preventing that for all eternity. That sounds an awful lot like God was planning on the Fall. Would that consistent with your theology?

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Everything God created on Earth was under the headship of Adam. Adam was placed in charge of the earth.

“Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”” Gen 1:26*

So the curse applied to the whole creation because Adam was its head.

Only the serpent and Adam & Eve were specifically cursed by God

No, that’s not correct.

  • And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;*

That sounds an awful lot like God was planning on the Fall. Would that consistent with your theology?

Just because God plans on something because he has foreknowledge in his omniscience does not mean God desires that thing to occur. That is not a problem for my theology.

So:

  • Adam is in charge of the animals
  • Adam sinned
  • Some animals started eating each other

I guess I can see the logic, thanks.

OK, fair point, I always read that as like agriculture, not animals, but maybe it’s more expansive.

That’s fine, I just wondered.

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