There’s more to that picture of a T. rex’s jaws and teeth than “being sharp”. The nature of the T. rex’s teeth are very clearly carnivorous for reasons that go beyond “being sharp”. Again, I encourage you to do some reading into the functional morphology of teeth.
Is the animal homodont (all teeth identical) or heterodont (different teeth have different shapes)? If the latter, how are the different teeth arranged in the mouth? What kind of jaw shape and muscles are present? Which surfaces contact each other and the food during the process of mastication? What’s the 3D topology of the tooth surfaces? What are the wear patterns on the teeth? How does the tooth histology look? All of these things and more can inform us about the diet of an animal.
Show me a known herbivore with teeth like a T. rex’s.
Really? You think that there is no version of an Adam and Eve with free will that wouldn’t have fallen? Why didn’t God stop the serpent from encouraging them to eat from the tree?
OK, this may sound completely silly, but reading your post just popped this in my brain. What if an animal pre-Fall just fell off a cliff? Did it not die? What if an elephant accidentally sat on a mouse, would it miraculously not die? Predation isn’t the only source of death. How does YEC folks handle that?
Pre-Fall, God was directly present. He was not far off and ‘hidden’ like he seems now. In fact he was walking right there in the Garden with Adam and talking to him. “Where are you?”
My point is, God was sustaining things here in a much more direct way. I don’t believe God would have allowed mortal accidents to occur for nephesh-chayyah life prior to the Fall.
So every time an elephant went to lie down, God would have physically stopped it or protected the mouse underneath? Every time an animal started walking near the edge of a cliff, God would have physically stopped it or miraculously supported the cliff edge to stop it from crumbling under the animal’s weight?
No. Have you thought carefully about that claim? God is the final authority. The Bible itself makes that clear.
I’m familiar with far too many “Statements of Faith” which make this same error. Indeed, I’ve preached at many churches and even lectured at a few seminaries where I couldn’t have become a member or joined the faculty because I could not honestly sign their doctrinal statements. And what I found interesting in many of those churches was that their denomination’s statement of faith was worded much better----but someone in the local congregation wanted to “help out” the Bible by raising it to a status beyond what it says of itself! So they added wording which went beyond the scriptures. (Some of the cases with which I’m familiar with encouraged by things that church member had read on an origins ministry entrepreneur’s webpage. They became absolutely determined to “implement” that doctrine at the local local in their own church.)
Some churches even have doctrinal statements which say things like "The Bible is the final authority on all areas of study and human endeavor, including geology, physics, astronomy, and every other field of science. " Needless to say, I don’t consider the Bible my final authority on geology.
Also, the Word of God is more than just the scriptures. That is yet another reason why the scriptures are not the final authority.
I’m confused. Why is herbivory allowed before the Fall, but carnivory isn’t? From the perspective of the organism being eaten, they’re not really different.
I think PDPrice would line up with John Milton’s Puritan theology here, from Paradise Lost: For man will heark’n to his glozing lyes, And easily transgress the sole Command, Sole pledge of his obedience: So will fall Hee and his faithless Progenie: whose fault? Whose but his own? ingrate, he had of mee All he could have; I made him just and right, Sufficient to have stood, though free to fall.
What is your evidence from the Bible that plant and fruits were different (“looked” different?) before the fall?
What is your evidence from God’s creation (i.e., scientific investigation) that plants and fruits were different before the fall?
Yes. The differences would be so enormous that one would surely expect the Bible to at least mention that second creation event.
I look forward to reading about @Pdprice’s favorite examples or example. (I say that quite sincerely. Not trying to sound cheeky.)
You may find this interesting: I used to have Young Earth Creationist colleagues who believed that in the pre-fall world everything was monitored by angels such that no such accidental deaths (or suffering of any kind) occurred or even could occur.
I wonder if that is a common opinion today in some circles. I’m very curious about that. Perhaps someone could comment on this.
Also, I’d be curious to know if they believe that there were no thorn/thorny species of plant of any kind on planet earth before the fall. Did God create thorny plants after the fall or did God simply created thorny structures for plant species which already existed?
Does that mean that all the innumerable and complicated mechanisms that many different plants use to avoid being eaten did not exist prior to the Fall?
On ADAM last thus judgement he pronounc’d. Because thou hast heark’nd to the voice of thy Wife, And eaten of the Tree concerning which I charg’d thee, saying: Thou shalt not eate thereof, Curs’d is the ground for thy sake, thou in sorrow Shalt eate thereof all the days of thy Life; Thornes also and Thistles it shall bring thee forth Unbid, and thou shalt eate th’ Herb of th’ Field, In the sweat of thy Face shalt thou eate Bread, Till thou return unto the ground, for thou Out of the ground wast taken, know thy Birth, For dust thou art, and shalt to dust returne.
In a Molinist pre-fallen world, God choose a reality path for his creation which simply did not include any such accidents which would cause animal death or suffering.
(I don’t find anything in the Bible which states that no animal death occurred before the fall in the original “very TOV” [not “perfect”] creation. So I’m merely posting this comment to provoke thought. Yes, it is a bit tongue-in-cheek but not totally. I’m trying to approach PDPrice’s position in the most generous way. Indeed, if God willed that no animal would die prior to the fall—regardless of whether the Bible describes that scenario—then I certainly acknowledge that no animal would have died. Yet, as a Molinist I would say that God wouldn’t have to intervene “moment-by-moment” to make that the case. @T.j_Runyon, you might find this post relevant to your Molinism question on your thread.)
I don’t known that—because I can’t find it in the Bible. (@PDPrice, you are describing a popular tradition about thorns and thistles.)
Adam and Eve had lived in a garden. Gardens don’t have them same kinds of plants in them that one finds in wilderness areas. What about the wilderness areas outside of that original garden in the Eden region? Where does the Bible say that there were no thorns outside of Eden before the fall?
Of course, I know that wilderness existed prior to the fall because of Genesis 1 and the fact that planting a garden involves taken what was once a wild area and restricting it to particularly types of plants and cultivation/maintenance methodologies.