Genesis, Carbon & Revelation

I came across this forum while reading Joshua Swamidass’ intriguing The Genealogical Adam and Eve. His approach to integrating scripture, science, and genealogy neatly aligned with some philosophical patterns I’ve been exploring. I thought this might be a good place to hold up some of these ideas and see how they stand under the buffeting of others who value both science and theology.

Conveying an eternal message through human language has always seemed nearly impossible to me. Languages evolve, metaphors decay, cultures shift, and technologies reframe meaning. If someone wanted to communicate across millennia, I wonder if they might not rely on syntax or symbols at all, but instead encode meaning directly into creation itself.

Physicist John Wheeler famously summarized the universe as “it from bit”, suggesting that information may be the substrate of reality. If that’s true, could scripture’s claim that “the heavens declare the glory of God” be more literal than poetic? Perhaps creation isn’t just a stage where divine history unfolds but a kind of self-documenting system, its laws and constants carrying an embedded message. In computational terms, maybe the cosmos itself is “written” in recurring binaries: light/dark, life/death, fill/form, dry land/seas - dualities we find reflected at nearly every scale.

Take the enigmatic “number of the beast.” Traditionally, it’s linked via gematria to Caesar’s name. But carbon, the foundation of life, carries a fingerprint: six protons, six neutrons, six electrons. A beast is a carbon-based lifeform. Could it be coincidence, or is there something deeper encoded here?

The Greek word psephizo, translated “calculate,” refers to judgment by casting stones. Christ promises the redeemed a white stone meaning innocence. Carbon’s most common allotropes are black, often symbolizing guilt. And yet diamond, a rarer form of carbon, scintillates like a “light-bringer,” perhaps an echo of Lucifer’s deceptive Edenic transformation from cherub to seraph. The commandments warn against messing about with form. The model is, ‘God forms, man names’. This would make Lucifer’s transformation, and carbon’s dual roles as black stone and sparkling diamond, the act of a commandment breaker.

Carbon has even been called the “King of the Elements.” Throughout Earth’s history, five mass extinctions have reshaped life, each tied in some way to carbon fluxes: CO₂ spikes, global warming, ocean acidification. Many scientists argue we’re entering a sixth extinction now, again carbon-driven. Revelation speaks of seven kings: “five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come.” Could these “kings” reflect epochs of carbon dominance, with the seventh marking a transition to something radically new (just as the Sabbath is set apart) - perhaps silicon-based systems, artificial life created in carbon’s own image? In that sense, might the “image of the beast” be more material than metaphorical?

Even death itself may be part of the pattern. “Darkness was over the face of the deep, and the Spirit hovered over the face of the waters.” From the beginning, creation seems structured around tension: life and death, form and dissolution. Christ’s declaration, “I am the resurrection", suggests that death is not an intruder but a component of the design - the very engine of transformation. Genesis says death “entered” when man fell, it wasn’t created; physics shows decay has been present from the start. Perhaps we can say that carbon mediates the balance between life and death, leaving its signature in the geology around us?

Revelation warns: “No one may buy or sell without the mark… or the number of the beast.” For the first time in history, we are approaching a world where carbon itself may literally determine economic access, through carbon credits, emissions tracking, and climate-linked policy. Is this just coincidence, or are we seeing something larger?

I’m curious how others here interpret these overlaps. Perhaps the story unfolds in fractals, each hinting at a smaller and larger reality. Maybe it’s simply poetic consonance, maybe I’m just apophenic; but could there be deeper structures, both scientific and theological, that are converging in ways we’re only beginning to perceive?

I for one agree with that. Thanks for the amusing wordplay. What meaning do you find in other carbon isotopes with 7 or 8 neutrons?

Coincidentally, carbon isotopes have featured here recently. What do you think that means?

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If so, “someone” is doing so in perhaps the most inefficient means conceivable, and the receiver is waiting at the end of the universe to for a message which will be entirely randomized by that time. “Someone” capable of doing this could certainly find much better means of communication.

There is no reason to think one of those things has anything to do with the other. It’s fun to speculate, but that’s as far as it goes. :slight_smile:

“Information” in the sense Wheeler is using it is very different from of the common usage of term. In physics Information is a measure of randomness, and have no meaning in the sense of a “message”.

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He could do like he did in the old days, and actually appear and talk to people, maybe leave a tablet or two behind, inspire a new scripture in the vernacular, that sort of thing.

I think the OP is proposing something different, communication through the medium of Creation, not communicating to or within the Creation.

OK, so maybe I’m being literal minded. :sweat_smile:

True. I was pointing out that there are better, clearer ways a deity could communicate, assuming it wanted its message to be understood.

Thanks for the reply. Glad you found the writing amusing, because if I can’t dazzle you with brilliance…:grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: Carbon’s isotopes may hint at a deeper story. Carbon-12, perfectly balanced, is the backbone of life, while carbon-14, unstable and decaying, becomes our clock for dating death. Adding just one or two neutrons completely shifts carbon’s role, almost as if creation itself encodes themes of life, death, and transformation right into its building blocks.

When they ate the fruit in the Garden of Eden, they were “covered in skin”; we could rewrite this as, “placed into a carbon form”. They became beasts, constrained and controlled by carbon. The scripture isn’t talking about a loincloth, it’s talking about the form that holds your phone while you’re reading this post.

The whole scripture is binary. The division of the writings is binary. Even the seven days of creation ultimately collapse into a binary - what is formed and what is filled. Although perhaps duality is a better term. Is there actually more than one way to measure? Would an unexamined alternate method first look like an illusory correlation? Am I getting off topic?

It is written that the things that are seen were made by what cannot be seen. Particles and fields. What is seen is temporary, what is unseen is eternal.

I, too, was shocked at the coincidence of two carbon postings on the same day. I read the article, and admittedly haven’t even considered photosynthesis as yet..

You’re right that Wheeler’s information is closer to entropy than to a message in the everyday sense. But perhaps what looks like noise at one level can carry signal at another?

Take the cosmic microwave background: totally static. Yet it’s also a fingerprint of the early universe; a map of density fluctuations that seeded galaxies, stars, and eventually life itself.

So perhaps “it from bit” hints at something subtle: the bits don’t say anything directly, but the patterns they inevitably generate could carry meaning. But we only see what we’re looking for. The first day of creation is a fractal of the seven days: three binaries, a singularity, and three more binaries. Does it mean anything? What I find more curious is that hundreds of millions of people read the first chapter of Genesis, often many times over, and never notice this.

NOT applicable to scripture, but … Sure there is more than one way to measure. However, when it comes to making decisions based on data, we already know the best way to do that for a rigorous definition of “best”. There are mathematical proofs and everything (Theory of Statistical Inference). Some people have tried to redefine “best” (or ignore entirely), but this necessarily introduces errors.
Again, speculation is fun, but realize that people have been making these speculations for thousands of years before us. The math shows there really isn’t any better way waiting to be found.

Am I getting off topic?

It’s hard to tell. :wink:

You’ve seen “Contact”, I assume? :wink:
Yes it can be done, but if the message is intended for humans then it is the worst possible way to do it. Given sufficient random noise we can fit it to any message we choose - we can fit it to every message possible - and there is no way to determine if any one of those coding is any better than another.
Nevertheless, people have been trying to do exactly this sort of thing for thousands of years, and they have all been wrong. Remember Nostradamus, or Harrold Camping?

That said, it’s OK to dream of such things. Just remember to keep one foot grounded in practicality and you’ll be OK. :cowboy_hat_face:

I understand what you’re saying. Any manuscript typed by any amount of monkeys becomes the works of Shakespeare - if you have the correct decoder ring. I think my use of the word ‘message’ is bad communication. I’m looking more at how one would determine if a painting was the work of Van Gogh. An artist is always constrained by themselves, and why would it be any different with God?

I’m not talking about the Dumbledore of heaven who can turn Mount Everest into a giant ice cream cone. It’s determining if God is true to his own premise (admittedly, speculation is involved), and if that premise holds across what had been made.

If I begin with the idea that God = Eternal (was, is, will be), then all that ‘pre-existed’ (I dislike that term but it’s mostly understood) has to be God. If God lived in heaven, heaven would also be God. So heaven had to be made. If there was space between items of God, then that space would also have to be God. So space was made because God is one. If God was going to make something, the means of making would have to pre-exist. The scripture says everything was made by the word of God. It also says the word is God.

So I keep following this chain. God is about relationship, so he needs a two. Where do you make a two? If it comes about within the one, it will be one. God is spirit, formless. Let’s call this infinite. There is no boundary. So he can’t make a two ‘outside’ of himself, because there is no outside. So he’d have to make an engineering sandbox, an area bounded by the infinite.

It says God is light and there is no darkness in him, so it would have to start in darkness. There might have to be a collapse of what was to make room for what’s to come. A void. It would be surrounded by the infinite, expanding into the infinite, but finite in itself, the formless obtaining form.

Relationship requires something to ‘come out of’ something else. Everything springs from the beginning and moves outward. Eve was not made as Adam was made, but came out of Adam so that there would be relationship. So too all of Earth’s creatures. They cannot be made independently, or there would be no relationship, they must come out of one another. Thus, they evolved. The creatures themselves came out of stardust, tracing their origins back to the beginning.

Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, forbidden because it had no seed, there was no relationship possible, nothing could come out of it. So they were placed into an evolved form, protected from immediate judgement. Now their origins tied back to the beginning, what was made and what will ultimately come to an end.

So when I read Gaztanaga’s theory of collapse, I go hmm. When I stumbled across Swamidass’ book, I went hmm. When it seems that man was placed into a form of carbon and became a beast, and the atomic number involved figures to 666, I go hmm. The Earth has a relationship with the moon, and there is the giant-impact hypothesis. Hmm.

Eventually there are enough hmms to look like a trend. Is the wrestling match we have with infinity caused by being in a finite state, but with an infinite selvedge? According to Paul we live in a mirror-world, we are some sort of chirality of the eternal. Can this been seen in the classical / quantum relationship?

Obviously this isn’t rigorous. But if equality works both ways, then a relationship with God should also come with some potential understanding; you could say, “God is like this, therefore” and take that and test it out in the universe.

Anyways, this post is too long. No worries that I’ll be a Millerite on a hill, I’m just in a very small town, and sometimes it’s nice to discuss something other than hockey :smirking_face:

If you run out of things to say about hockey, there’s always beer and donuts, eh? :wink:

The constraint here seems to be that we have only one example of Creation to consider. If God has any recognizable style, then we need to see multiple words by God and other Creators to make any distinction of one from the others.

But then, I’m an agnostic statistician, so of course I’d say we need a bigger sample size. You might do better asking this of philosophers. :sweat_smile:

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