Genetic Entropy will be debated once again - May 13 on Standing For Truth

Hi @jeffb , I wondered if you might show up. :wink:

We are well aware of the difference, and there are numerous textbooks on the subject of “experimental design”. The difference is usually described in terms of observational and prospective data/experiments. Prospective data is the Gold Standard when you can get it, and that’s why we do clinical trials for new medical treatments (and new treatment don’t have any history to observe). You CAN do experiment using historical/observational data too, but it looks different.

The discovery of Tiktaalik, is one such example. I’ve think I’ve shown you this before so I we be brief: Neil Shubin and his team noted a gap is the fossil record between fish and land walking tetrapods (four-legged critters). They hypothesized that such a creature should have existed, and that fossils showing transitional features might be found (prediction). They consulted geological record (independent data) for locations where such fossils could exist (ancient tidal marches), and organized an expedition to go fossil hunting. He found the fossil Tiktaalik we now know as Tiktaalik, confirming the prediction.

This is an example of abductive inference in Paleontology. The experiment is repeatable, looking for similar fossils in other locations. So no, no one is denying a difference, the objection is to the claim that you cannot do real science with historical data.

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The creationist response to that paper (the published version with Baum as the lead author, anyway) via Rob Stadler and separately via Sal Cordova is “no extant pattern of similarity precludes separate ancestry because God could have made things look any which way”. Which…fine, but now we’re playing Calvinball and your model, if it could be called that, is unfalsifiable and certainly can’t be called a “model” in any sense at that point.

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Sal is claiming a deceptive God? I thought he knew better, but then he does tend to get stuck on bad ideas.

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Simple answer: no. It’s a distinction used solely by creationists to avoid dealing with any study of the past.

Calling that a journal article is a stretch, as is calling the “Journal of Creation” a journal. Also, while “historical science” is a term long in common use, “operational science” is not. And the only distinction between historical and other science is in the questions asked of the data, not in methods.

Can they? Go for it. What is the difference?

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That also demands that God is purposely trying to deceive us by fudging data.

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If I can tag-on here - Is the “prospective and observational data” as I described just above different from “historical and operational science”?

From what I can tell, “operational” means nearly the same thing as “prospective”. And as far as “historical” goes, there are textbooks on the analysis of observational data, so it’s pretty hard to make the claim that scientists “do not see the difference.”

I can see how someone not working in science might not understand how the scientific method applies to both.

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Evidence is not neutral and interpreted according to one’s presuppositions as YEC likes to assert. Presuppositions do not interpret evidence, the evidence adjudicates the presuppositions. As creationists subscribe to articles of faith such as “no apparent, perceived, or claimed evidence in any field of study, including science, history, and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture obtained by historical-grammatical interpretation”, it is clear that YEC is concerned with theology and not the weight of evidence. YEC are evidence-deniers, broadly dismissing scientific data both operational and historical.

All science, including research into the past, is characterized by careful measurement, often with instrumentation of incredible precision. Science cannot be self-contradictory, the picture of the past must be coherent with the data as a whole. Science, including in regards to the past, is generalized from principles and data established by experimentation and direct observation. YEC wave away the value of operational science for understanding the past by invoking the anachronistic term uniformitarianism, and then nonchalantly substitute fabrications which are completely devoid of experimental support. So do not tell that creationists actually value operational science. There is no real curiosity, it is all about denying the ancient earth.

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I for one don’t know what prospective data are and how they would differ from observational data. Or how Tiktaalik relates.

There are innumerable theists who agree with the “naturalists” here. The basic methods of science all depend on inference and comparing observed data to model predictions.

The distinction you should be making here isn’t between naturalists and non-naturalists, but YEC vs everyone else. The only people who obsess about the “historical” vs “operational” science distinction are YEC who desire to undermine confidence in inferences supporting deep time.

It’s also blatantly hypocritical since YEC haven’t seen any of the things they believe and none of it can be tested or repeated. The great flood, the divine creation of the universe, life on Earth, man and woman. None of it can be tested operationally or observed.

So this isn’t going to fly Jeff.

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What does “tested operationally” mean?

Thanks for watching! I’m shocked to find somebody on here who is actually supporting something I’ve said instead of the normal scoffing and difference denial. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

That’s a great term, I may steal it.

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Not only are people actively denying the difference, but they are also pig-headedly refusing to even educate themselves on what the terms mean. Abductive reasoning applies to historical science (What is the most logical inference about a past event by looking at all available evidence?). Inductive reasoning applies to operational science (What has happened in the past when I do this experiment? I assume it will continue to happen in the future).

At no point did I say that historical science isn’t “real science”. That would be a strawman. But our level of confidence in historical science is necessarily lower than the confidence we have in operational science, because we cannot witness or repeat the events in question. Hypotheses about historical events are not subject to falsification. I explain that in my journal article.

So explain how DNA testing for common descent, something you and Paul claim is invalid, is different from paternity testing. Both test genetic predictions of hypotheses that explain past events, no?

Be sure to go deep into the mathematical and computational differences.

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And the standard creationist response to anyone pointing out unintelligently designed aspects of life (all of which are consistent with an iterative process) is, ‘How arrogant of you to claim to know the mind of God!’

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Mercer

OK, I don’t get this. ELI5 (or ELI15): How is it that you feel qualified to:

  1. make ex cathedra pronouncements about knowing the “original host” of the influenza virus, in which you know that it was nonpathogenic (still waiting for you to support or retract that),
  2. tell working scientists that they don’t understand science, and
  3. engage in a public debate about science,

…all of which require significant knowhow, if you don’t have the knowhow to do something that anyone with a web browser connected to the internet can do?

Are you aware that people can gain knowhow if they care to? I learned biochemistry in my 50s. Why not try? Besides, you can get @jeffb to help.

It really, really is. Clearly you aren’t inhibited by your lack of knowhow there!

It’s the same and just as empirical as paternity testing–not even analogous, yet we never see creationists complaining about that (unless they are the ones trying to avoid identification as the father). Why is that? Has any creationist, other than those who don’t want to be identified as a father, ever claimed that “paternity testing is invalid because it requires observation of the sex act itself?”

I think we can be very confident that we will never, ever see you or any other creationist saying that.

You are thinking that quoting that is some sort of gotcha? Let me clarify it: no hypothesis is ever considered to be proven, but hypotheses are routinely disproven every day. It’s the job of a scientist to try to disprove her/his hypothesis. That’s why creationists are pseudoscientists.

We’re teaching the real scientific method to kids now. You could pick up a junior-high textbook and learn some of this.

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I would suspect that most “naturalists” (however you choose to define that), scientists who are theists, philosophers of science, etc, etc aren’t even aware that the purported ‘difference between operational and historical sciences’ is something that is being promoted.

It would appear to be purely a confection of YEC apologetics, and known only to YEC apologists and to pro-science observers of YEC apologetics.

This is why, rather than being discussed by serious philosophers of science in serious philosophy of science journals, it is being discussed by a YEC apologist with zero scientific and philosophy of science expertise on (i) an obscure, high-volume, low-impact Youtube channel and (ii) in a YEC apologetics ministry’s in-house ‘journal’. It is the very epitome of “preaching to the choir”. (And we are well aware that you yourself are part of that choir.)

What “debate”? All I see is the existence of a video of Paul blathering on for two hours on a subject on which he has no expertise, that only garnered 1500 views.

Until he, or some other YEC apologist, can convince a serious philosopher of science to take them seriously, why should I even bother?

Both the internet and general, and Youtube in particular, is chock full of crackpot viewpoints. “Don’t bother until they can find a serious expert willing to take them seriously” would appear to be a reasonable filtering heuristic.

That it is “easily grasp[ed]” does not mean it is true:

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

Jeff, YEC is chock-full of weird and silly claims that the vast majority of the scientific community are completely unaware of. When a YEC apologist points to one of them, the first inclination is simply to laugh. Then, if we’ve got the inclination and the time, we may also pick some of the more obvious holes in the claim.

All it really does is remind us of how silly some parts of YEC are.

(That is not to imply that all YECs are silly – some of them are simply ill-informed – others are serious people laboring in the Sisyphian task of trying to make YEC unsilly.)

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“No” and “none”. The H1N1 paper was in "Theoretical Biology and Medical Modeling”, which as far as I can tell shut down in 2021. In an email exchange with Carter, he was clear that they did not experimental work on any viruses; it was purely computational, using virulence (mortality rate, specifically) and the match between viral and host codon bias as proxies for fitness, but did not directly evaluate H1N1 fitness experimentally at any point.

(I probably don’t have to explain to this audience why those two metrics are extraordinarily bad proxies for fitness.)

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This is a complete misunderstanding of host-virus dynamics. The underlying model here is that long-standing interactions trend towards commensalism, and this has been observed but it isn’t a generalizable rule. We have counter-examples on both sides of the ledger. Pathogens like measles and syphilis have been around literally as long as recorded human history, and they’re no less pathogenic in the modern world than they were for ancient Egyptians. On the other hand, recent crossovers like HIV-2 and Ebola Reston have extremely low pathogenicity.

Paul is just taking this pop science nonsense at face value with no understanding of the underlying biology.

The real dynamics driving virulence are intra- vs. interhost competition. If intrahost competition predominates, we see selection for rapid replication, with virulence as a byproduct. If interhost competition is the rate-limiting step, selection favors longer periods of infectivity, which drives down virulence. In neither case is virulence the phenotype under selection.

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I assume it means you have a beaker with some colored liquid in it, then while standing next to it you verbalize the hypothesis “by the power of oxidation these two chemicals should precipitate”, and then (while wearing a labcoat and safety-goggles ofc.) you stare intensely at the beaker. If you hate God enough, the reaction in the beaker will respond to your bias making the result untrustworthy.

If that isn’t what they mean I have no idea either.

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You misspelt ‘confirmed’.

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