I have some questions about the "Local Flood" of Noah

The Bible is not ANE literature. It’s God-inspired Hebrew literature. The Jewish people are not just another group of pagans, and comparing their literature to pagan literature and using said pagan literature as a rubric to understand Jewish literature is … wrong.

Considering context is everything.

That isn’t what you’re doing at all. Your eisegeting the God-given Hebrew text as if it were an ANE (non-inspired) pagan text. Nothing in the Bible itself remotely suggests hyperbole is being used here.

What messaging could you be referring to?

If it were a local flood, God could have moved Noah right to the outskirts of where the flood would happen. That way he could still “be a prophet” to the evil people and yet miss getting hit by the flood itself. But this aside, we still have no explanation for why animals would have been needed on the ark.

Hebrew literature IS ANE literature. God met the Jews in the historical context they belonged to. The use of hyberbole has nothing to do with religion, God used it because that was what made sense to them. How were the Jews supposed to minister to the rest of the world if their scripture was written with motifs and styles that no one else understood?

Nothing in the Bible itself remotely suggests hyperbole is being used here.

Nothing in the Bible suggests hyperbole isn’t being used here either. This could put our positions on even ground, but there is archaeological evidence affirming mine.

What messaging could you be referring to?

By instructing Noah to put animals on the ark, God was saying to the people that they had become so base the animals were more worth saving.

If it were a local flood, God could have moved Noah right to the outskirts of where the flood would happen.

He COULD. You can’t be a missionary if you’re not on the mssion field.

1 Like

The Jewish people were a unique people compared to their neighbors, by design. If you have missed this, I suggest you have missed one of the most important messages of the OT.

Again, you’re assuming what you’re trying to prove. There is no Scriptural reason to say that the Flood was hyperbole. We also know that God is not the author of confusion, nor can God lie. Saying something is “hyperbolic” is basically saying it’s false, unless you can show the necessary context to clue the reader in on this figure of speech. You cannot simply wave the “hyperbole wand” any time the Bible indicates something you don’t wish to take literally.

If you are going to claim a figure of speech is used, the onus is on you to demonstrate its presence. It is not enough to say “well, you can’t show it isn’t there”! The absence of any reason to say it’s hyperbolic is in fact all I need to show.

This could put our positions on even ground, but there is archaeological evidence affirming mine.

What archaeological evidence are you talking about?

Here is where you are contradicting yourself horribly. Because on the one hand, the animals are supposed to be sending the message that these people are not worth saving. But then on the other hand, you claim Noah couldn’t have left the area because God did want to save these people, and Noah was supposed to be a prophet to them to get them to repent. If they were were worth less than animals (not worth saving) then Noah didn’t need to stay.

That’s ridiculous. The Bible (OT) most certainly is ANE literature, because it was written in the ANE. Insisting it is god-inspired and thus different from other ANE writings doesn’t change that fact.

2 Likes

Take these three statements:

1-- There were one or more devastating widespread floods in the Mesopotamian region in the several millennia prior to the time of writing of Genesis, and written or oral-traditional accounts of these disasters could have survived and been available to the writer of Genesis, and could have been source material inspiring the writer of Genesis.

2-- There was never, at any time, an actual global flood, a universal deluge covering the entire Earth.

3-- The writer of Genesis is intentionally portraying a universal deluge.

Note that it is possible for all three of these statements to be entirely true, without any logical contradiction.

Does this consideration help anyone here?

1 Like

I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here, except to say that you don’t believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

No, that’s not my point. Is there a position one could logically hold about the text of Genesis, while accepting all three of the given statements? One that does not require rejecting the inspiration of Genesis? If you give it some thought, I think you can find such a position, though it may not be a position that suits your theological taste.

2 Likes

Again, this should have started the thread: “I believe the Bible describes a global flood, and anyone who disagrees with me disagrees with God”.

It’s the nuclear option, a conversation killer and an insult to the faith of sincere fellow believers.

5 Likes

A good point, Prof. Bravus. However, I would slightly qualify your paraphrase, changing it to:

“I believe the Bible describes a global flood, and intended that description to be read as one would read a modern history textbook, and anyone who disagrees with me disagrees with God”.

1 Like

“Inspiration”? Maybe, depending on your definition. Inerrancy? No.

It’s called asking the hard questions and showing that old earth / local flood viewpoints clearly cannot answer them cogently.

Whose definition of inerrancy? The Bible might be “inerrant in all that it intends to teach” – yet not teach what you think it does.

I take your side in thinking that the Genesis narrative portrays something universal rather than local, but I don’t draw from that portrayal the teaching that you do. I don’t think the Genesis narrative is reporting about the past, in the modern historical sense. That doesn’t rule out including this or that element corresponding to the actual past, of course, but the point isn’t to convey newsreel-style pictures of the past. It’s to teach something about the shortcomings of human nature. And I think that to teach the point being made, portraying the Flood as universal is more fitting than portraying it as happening only to Mesopotamians (as if the Chinese and other faraway peoples don’t have the same human flaws). And also, the literary details, on the whole (there seem to be a few phrases that could go the other way), seem to point to a universal flood.

I know that some intelligent and informed Christians disagree with me on this, and think the text indicates only a local flood, and I don’t regard them as ignorant or un-Christian for doing so; I just disagree over the meaning of the text. You might perhaps agree with me that the interpretation of the Flood story is not a “salvation issue”?

2 Likes

I just found out last night via a random YouTube comment that linked to a different YouTube video that the Chinese have an ancient creation story very similar to the Bible. That pastor in Singapore was describing how ancient Chinese characters relate to the Garden, the Fall, the Flood. It seemed compelling and since the audience was ethnically Chinese I assume could check if he was making it up. Not definitive, but at least interesting possible evidence of a historical world-wide flood and migration for what would become the Chinese culture soon after it. I was looking it up afterwards and it was on a couple of creationist websites too so now @PDPrice will probably link you. :sweat_smile:

1 Like

What it says, it teaches. Otherwise, anybody can simply claim it “teaches” anything, regardless of what it actually says.

Based on what, in Scripture, do you say this? Jesus clearly preached and taught from the OT, including Genesis, as real history.

But if the Chinese weren’t involved in the Flood, then it really wasn’t universal. Teaching it was then becomes a falsehood. Which is why I said you cannot uphold inerrancy with this view.

And also, the literary details, on the whole (there seem to be a few phrases that could go the other way), seem to point to a universal flood.

Then believe it!

But not really! Since you also seem to deny that Scripture teaches a global flood really happened.

Sure, I agree that your salvation will be judged by God, not by me. That doesn’t make this any less important or foundational to the true biblical Christian faith, though.

No hypothesis testing allowed? Is that why you changed “local flood hypotheses” to “local flood viewports”?

The distribution of Flood stories around the world has been long known. One possible explanation for such stories, of course, is that there was in fact a worldwide flood. However, we know from comparative religion and comparative mythology that many stories, not just flood stories, have parallels in widely dispersed cultures, in some cases cultures on the other side of oceans. Such parallels often seem to be unconnected with any universal historical event, and have often been explained in sociological and psychological ways, and in terms of what is called “phenomenology of religion” – as in the works of Mircea Eliade, the great Chicago scholar of comparative religion.

And when you think about it, a great flood, destruction by water, is a natural religious image, as is a great fire (often the world is conceived of as destined to end in a great fire, in various traditions). And of course, no one claims that there must have been a universal “great fire” in the past that got people thinking in those terms; fire is a natural symbol for mass destruction of life – as is flood.

Since substantial evidence for a worldwide flood at any period is virtually absent, and for one about the time of Noah (ca. 3100 BC or so) is pretty near nil, most geologists, archaeologists and historians, of any religious stripe, do not find the “it really happened” explanation convincing as an explanation of the global distribution of flood stories, and the psychology/phenomenology explanation is the predominant one among religion scholars.

PD Price will doubtless be able to name a hundred fundamentalist scholars who are convinced of a global flood about 3000 BC, but overwhelmingly such scholars are found within Protestant fundamentalist denominations, not even in all Protestant evangelical groups, and certain not in mainline Protestantism, Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, or Judaism (outside of a very tiny group of literalist Jews), or the Asian religious traditions.

Of course, that doesn’t prove the fundamentalists wrong, but it is suspicious that even the vast majority of Christian and Jewish geologists don’t agree with them. One can’t help but suspect that a literalist reading of the Bible is driving the science – which to my mind is just as objectionable as the opposite phenomenon, in which theistic evolutionists let their evolutionary commitments drive their Biblical exegesis. What we need is good science and good Biblical exegesis, and these are both at their best when not being driven by agendas brought in from other fields.

5 Likes

This is the core of your problem. You’re trusting what the scoffers are telling you, rather than the what God told us in the Bible. Peter warned us this would happen in 2 Peter 3 so we wouldn’t be taken off guard. You won’t believe the Bible really teaches what it says because your true authority is so-called scientific consensus.

It doesn’t matter who can name whom. It matters what God said happened. It also just so happens that there is overwhelming evidence for a global flood which must be deliberately overlooked (cf 2 Peter 3).

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. There can be no honest exegesis at all when the concept is introduced that the Bible need not “teach” what it actually says!

7 posts were split to a new topic: Eddie and Paul Price on the Bible and Theology

No, they don’t have a flood story. They have a creation story. And the garden of Eden, fall, Tower of Babel and flood seem to be part of the Chinese alphabet at one time at least - and he seems to indicate some of them are current. Even if one of these characters holds up, that’s interesting. If they all do, that’s really impressive.

After I saw this video, I checked out to see whether this holds up. It seems the creation story does and the characters probably do, but the pastor in the video was part of a huge scandal and went to prison. So that’s obviously not great - yikes! But the presentation is still interesting - especially as he writes out the characters. Also it’s interesting to see what a megachurch in Asia is like…all the clapping is not my style…but oh well :slight_smile:

I’m amused at that statement. Just how did you check?

3 Likes

It’s nothing to do with “scoffers.” It’s a matter of getting your facts straight. Nothing more, nothing less.

Here’s the thing. You can believe whatever you like about where, when, or how extensive the Flood was. But once you start claiming to have evidence to support your position, there are rules that you need to stick to. And I’m not talking about “uniformitarianism” or “methodological naturalism” or anything like that. I’m talking about the basic rules of honesty, factual accuracy, and mathematical coherence.

A worldwide flood on the scale that you YECs teach would leave clear patterns of evidence. It would have features that are not observed in reality, while features that are observed in reality would be completely absent.

4 Likes