Intelligent Design and Common Descent

Science
Design

(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #309

This is not the case. The bible puts Adam and Eve in a special garden with all the creature of the earth and then they get evicted to populate the Earth.

It is the archaeological and anthropological findings that place the where and when the Genesis story was first written down.

You are just taking the where and when of the Genesis story and inserting your made up Genealogical Adam and Eve in. Realize the writers of Genesis know nothing about the history of mankind, the history of the region, and the invention and spread of architecture.


(George) #310

@John_Harshman, you write:

“Sure, in the sense that they are clearly placed into the beginnings
of everything human. But that’s just the people who came up with the
story supposing that there had been farmers and herders from the
beginning. “We have always done it that way”. There’s no particular
attempt there to place them in a history in which agriculture was
invented.”

John, do you ever just contemplate about what your words mean? The
links to articles with maps quite clearly show that there is no ONE
PLACE. But there appears to be a “curvy region” which appears to be
the most likely.

So shall we compound our errors by placing Adam/Eve 20,000 years
earlier, and outside this apparent epicenter? Instead of reflexively
writing criticisms which don’t really have anything to do with my
point, just ignore my response as too challenging to “destroy by
criticism” within 5 minutes time.

I accept the limits that you describe … but logic tells us that
going beyond the limits is even more foolish.


(George) #311

@Patrick

You write: “This is not the case. The bible puts Adam and Eve in a
special garden with all the creature of the earth and then the get
evicted to populate the Earth. It is the archaeological and
anthropological findings that place the where and when the Genesis
story was first written down. You are just taking the where and when
of the Genesis story and inserting your made up Genealogical Adam and
Eve in. Realize the writers of Genesis know nothing about the history
of mankind, the region, and the invention and spread of architecture.”

Patrick, did it ever occur to you that I am trying to offer the path
of least resistance into the popular understandings of the Bible. You
keep forgetting that I’m a Unitarian Universalist. I don’t need
Adam/Eve at all. And I am not overly impressed with the historicity
of the Old Testament.

But this doesn’t prevent me from sifting through the Biblical detritus
to find the nuggets of writing that are most helpful and most
appealing to the refugees of the YEC and OEC camps.

As for Adam being in a garden… we assume he learned something in
Eden… he certainly wasn’t doing much hunting, right? So it is
plausible (indeed, maybe most plausible) that he passed on what he
learned to the immediate folks of his surrounding. They were hunters
and gatherers … and they were constantly on the move… And so it
also becomes plausible that his homestead wasn’t even the best or most
vigorous place of agriculture. Knowing how to farm better than most,
he needed less land, and less reliance on others around him. He could
have been quite the hermit … I think you would have liked him.


(S. Joshua Swamidass) #312

@gbrooks9, I think he is just Red Teaming you.


(John Harshman) #313

The most likely what? This is the place, or region if you prefer, where the cultivation of certain food crops probably began, and from which that cultivation spread to various other areas. But it’s not the region of the origin of all agriculture, which happened several times independently. Nor does it have anything to do with the Adam & Eve story.

I don’t see this as compounding any error. The error is in supposing that the story can be traced to any real incident.

I do not understand your meaning here. But you seem in general in this response oddly combative and defensive, not to say snide.


(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #314

I don’t give two hoots about your Unitarian Universalism.

Take a look at @Alice_Linsley site on facebook for what is know from anthropology about the writing of Genesis. You can align GA and GE to the founding couple of the priestly group. @Alice_Linsley can probably give you a time period and location for this first couple of priests. It will give you an anchor based on science not the whimsical nature that you have now.


(S. Joshua Swamidass) #315

@patrick that has literally been what he has been arguing.


(George) #316

@John_Harshman

You write: “The most likely what? This is the place, or region if you
prefer, where the cultivation of certain food crops probably began,
and from which that cultivation spread to various other areas. But
it’s not the region of the origin of all agriculture, which happened
several times independently. Nor does it have anything to do with the
Adam & Eve story.”

You seem to be pretty tense these days, John.

  1. Didn’t you just tell me there was no ONE place where agriculture
    started? Yes. You did.
  2. So if I put Adam/Eve in the Middle East, isn’t that the most
    logical place to look? If I put him in China… does that make sense
    to you?
  3. I don’t care where he goes… he isn’t “my guy”. But Fringe YECs,
    Fringe OECs, and others aren’t going to be bothered by purely rigorous
    history, right? If they were bothered by such things, they wouldn’t
    be YECs and OECs, right?
  4. As for the region having anything to do with Adam & Eve… it’s
    hard for me to take you seriously on this point. It’s certainly
    within walking distance, if they have some help. I didn’t say Eden
    had to be in that region.

You really don’t seem to be getting into the spirit of this
exploration for how to make Joshua’s case as compelling as possible.
Why exactly are you here? Could you remind me? Are you here to scare
the Creationists off? You are probably doing a great job at that…


(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #317

Not really. He seems hell bent on a special creation of GA and GE. @Alice_Linsley says that they were real people (not created first couple). And Genesis is just a embellished mythological story about them.


(George) #318

@Patrick

I don’t think you know a thing about the U.U. church. Did you know
one of the most popular self-referential jokes in a U.U. daycare
center is:
“Unitarians… we’re atheists with children!”

I think that’s a bit extreme … but I would think you would love it…


(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #319

I know little if anything about the U.U. church. I do know that the U.U church around here accept atheists pretty well. So yes Unitarians can be atheists with children. Note that all children are born atheists and would not invent God without indoctrination by parents/caregivers.


(S. Joshua Swamidass) #320

6 posts were split to a new topic: Are Babies Atheists?


(Chris Falter) #321

Hello Dr. Gauger,

Lenski’s LTEE has kept careful records of mutations in some E. Coli population for tens of thousands of generations. These records show a history of specific mutations, drift, and selection that have resulted in important changes in functionality. Lenski’s team has drawn direct lines between specific sets of DNA changes to specific functionality changes.

It seems to me that the Lenski’s LTEE shows that the mechanisms are capable of doing what evolutionary biologists say they do.

Of course, I am not a professional biologist, so I might be overlooking something. If so, what would that be?

Thanks, and have a blessed day!

Chris Falter


(John Harshman) #322

Is that the purpose, making his case compelling? You’re right, that isn’t my purpose at all. But I do think I serve the valuable function of keeping it honest. What would be compelling to a YEC is not a useful standard of honesty or of compatibility with the facts. I’m more interested in what can be supported. Does that scare off creationists?


(John Harshman) #323

How does she know that?


(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #324

Because the priestly group actually existed in that culture and that time. There had to be a first priest or subsequent priest who defined that their grandparents were the first priestly couple. It was oral tradition at first then written down. The Adam and Eve story is the mythological story written about the mythological exploits of this couple. There was nothing special about this couple other than being in the genealogy of the priestly group.


(John Harshman) #325

Again, how does she know that?


(Dr. Patrick Trischitta) #326

Through the sciences of archaeology and anthropology. Studying the artifacts, the culture, the bones and the DNA of the people, plants and animals.


(George) #327

@John_Harshman

And yet this is why @swamidass and i are working together.

Doesnt that suggest that you are working AGAINST Joshua and me?


(John Harshman) #328

I am highly skeptical of that claim.