Is Helicase a House of Cards?

[Timothy_Horton]

@stcordova

Dr. Mercer is invited to explain the evidence that suggests random sequences can create something that functions like the helicase in the animation.

OK, who has post #20 in the “Creationist makes strawman of evolution being only random, omits all mention of selection” in the pool?

[Giltil (Gilbert Thill)]

@Mercer

This is utterly false. Clearly, you don’t understand ID theory.

There’s no such thing. How can one understand or not understand something that doesn’t exist?

I see. You deny that an ID theory exist. Ok, I will not argue with you about this.
So let me reformulate my critic to @T_aquaticus as follow:
«This is utterly false. Clearly, you don’t understand the Specification-based ID argument »
Now do you see that on substance I am right and @T_aquaticus is wrong?

[T_aquaticus]

@stcordova

As an aside, it is inelegant to use violations of the law of large numbers to say the following structure is designed, but it is clearly a violation of normative expectation since random starting coordinates and orientations of the cards will not achieve this macrostate.

You still need to relate this to biology and evolution.

[T_aquaticus]

@Roy

Where is the SPECIFICATION for the helicase protein?

As ID supporters do, I declare that the random protein sequence I got from the webtool as being specified. This is no different than saying helicase is specified after it emerges.

[T_aquaticus]

@stcordova

The problem of helicase is comparable to building a motor with the parts properly fit. There may be an infinite number of ways to build a motor, but the structure of one part limits the way the other parts can be made such that the overall whole is functional. Randomly concocted parts won’t work! It is the geometry and fitting requirement that make helicase improbable as a life-critical protein.

You haven’t shown that a motor is analogous to biology. You just assert it.

It is also worth mentioning that there are functioning helicase dimers, and there is the possibility of functioning monomers:

Using a wide array of biochemical and biophysical approaches, we have previously shown that the Escherichia coli RecQ helicase functions as a monomer.
Escherichia coli RecQ is a rapid, efficient, and monomeric helicase - PubMed

Forming a ring structure really isn’t that difficult since all you need is one binding domain at a certain angle to the region it binds to.

[colewd (Bill Cole)]

@T_aquaticus

This is where the ID smoke and mirrors comes in. ID supporters would claim that the odds of those people winning is too astronomical, and therefore there had to be a designer who helped things along.

This is a false claim.

The ID crowd understands if the lottery had 100 balls instead of 6 the probability is that no one would ever win the lottery.

[T_aquaticus]

@colewd

The ID crowd understands if the lottery had 100 balls instead of 6 the probability is that no one would ever win the lottery.

Except that isn’t the case, as shown by enzyme activity being found in randomly assembled regions in antibodies.

[colewd (Bill Cole)]

@T_aquaticus

Except that isn’t the case, as shown by enzyme activity being found in randomly assembled regions in antibodies.

How many protein types have you surveyed? In how many applications? PRP8 has 99.9% sequence identity in mice and humans. This looks more line 1000 balls.

[T_aquaticus]

@colewd

How many protein types have you surveyed?

That seems like a fool’s errand because there will never be enough examples to meet your requirements. Whenever a new function is found you will say “Well, what about this one?”.

@colewd

PRP8 has 99.9% sequence identity in mice and humans. This looks more line 1000 balls.

Sharpshooter fallacy.

[colewd (Bill Cole)]

@T_aquaticus

That seems like a fool’s errand because there will never be enough examples to meet your requirements. Whenever a new function is found you will say “Well, what about this one?”.

Skillful dodge

[T_aquaticus]

@colewd

Skillful dodge

That’s what your demand for a prp8 abzyme is, a dodge. Instead of dealing with the functions that have emerged in random sequence you just say, “But what about that one??”.

[colewd (Bill Cole)]

@T_aquaticus

That’s what your demand for a prp8 abzyme is, a dodge. Instead of dealing with the functions that have emerged in random sequence you just say, “But what about that one??”.

If you back off the grand claims of UCD and you have a known mechanism for all diversity I will back off.

A lot of evolutionary theory is very good. It is just not a complete explanation of life’s diversity.

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

@colewd

A lot of evolutionary theory is very good. It is just not a complete explanation of life’s diversity.

Do you agree there is very strong evidence for common descent of humans with the great apes? Is that part that is very good?

[colewd (Bill Cole)]

I think there is good evidence here for common descent. I don’t think we have a complete mechanistic explanation. I like your GAE option.

[Timothy_Horton]

@colewd

If you back off the grand claims of UCD and you have a known mechanism for all diversity I will back off.

Sorry, we don’t negotiate with terrorists.

A lot of evolutionary theory is very good. It is just not a complete explanation of life’s diversity.

Who in science ever said evolutionary theory is a complete explanation for anything??

[colewd (Bill Cole)]

@Timothy_Horton

Who in science ever said evolutionary theory is a complete explanation for anything??

Dawkins. I have to say I liked your terrorist comment made me laugh.

[DaleCutler]

Positivists kind of have to, don’t they?

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

@DaleCutler not really. That seems to be a misreading of positivist, scientists and Dawkins.

[Chris_Falter]

@Giltil and @stcordova, Good evening. How many possible specifications for functional proteins consisting of 100 amino acids are there?

Once we have an empirically established number, then we can talk meaningfully about the ability of the evolutionary machinery to produce any particular sequence of that length.

And please do not cite Axe, whose experiment was not designed to answer that question.

Best,
Chris